The Fall: Peacable Kingdoms cover

[Avro Arrow]

I know it's not stated verbally, but IIRC, Fletcher's rank designs included one for Commodore, which I believe was worn by some background characters in the later TOS movies.

Although Starfleet *may* have phased out the Commodore rank, we really have no evidence that it uses the terrible-sounding "Rear Admiral, Lower Half". I believe the only "one-pip" admiral we ever saw on-screen was Admiral Quinn, and even that's not definite, since they were using a different rank insignia for admirals in TNG season one.

(Assuming Quinn is a one-pip admiral, then we would know that they are called admirals, rather than commodores, by the TNG era. My own personal rationalization is that Starfleet changed Commodore to Commodore Admiral, which was an actual US naval rank for a whole eleven months. This would still allow them to be called "admiral", but also allows for the multiple references to "commodore" in Peter David's novels! But you could just as easily say that Starfleet has commodores in TNG, and we just never saw any.)

And to Christopher's point about Kirk, based on Kirk's insignia, he would have been a Rear Admiral, Upper Half anyway, so he still would have skipped over the previous grade, whether it was called Commodore or Rear Admiral, Lower Half at the time.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Outside the US commodore was traditionally a position not a rank used for captains commanding a squadron. It's always possible Starfleet reverted to this usage at some point. Or for that matter that had always been the case, ie a "commodore" circa TOS being a "fleet captain" (o7?) with an active command of a ship plus squadron.

 

[The Wormhole]

Outside the US commodore was traditionally a position not a rank used for captains commanding a squadron. It's always possible Starfleet reverted to this usage at some point. Or for that matter that had always been the case, ie a "commodore" circa TOS being a "fleet captain" (o7?) with an active command of a ship plus squadron.

Except in TOS Fleet Captain was a separate rank, held by Pike and Garth. Although in the real world, Fleet Captain is a position, not a rank, 23rd century Starfleet apparently used it as a rank, since Kirk mentioned Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain.

 

[Christopher]

^He could've meant that Pike was promoted into the position of fleet captain.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Outside the US commodore was traditionally a position not a rank used for captains commanding a squadron. It's always possible Starfleet reverted to this usage at some point. Or for that matter that had always been the case, ie a "commodore" circa TOS being a "fleet captain" (o7?) with an active command of a ship plus squadron.

Except in TOS Fleet Captain was a separate rank, held by Pike and Garth. Although in the real world, Fleet Captain is a position, not a rank, 23rd century Starfleet apparently used it as a rank, since Kirk mentioned Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain.

"In the real world" is a loaded term, since again, usage of ranks/positions/titles isn't consistent across every country.

In what we've seen of TOS, none of the people with a "Fleet Captain" rank were holding active commands, while everyone who was a "Commodore" was.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^He could've meant that Pike was promoted into the position of fleet captain.

That's what I think he meant. Fleet captain would seem to be a special position held by one or a small number of individuals and would therefore require a special appointment for an individual to hold the rank/title.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

I was just thinking in terms of a job promotion, i.e. being elevated into a higher position with wider responsibilities. Going from the commanding officer of one ship to the commanding officer of a fleet would be a promotion in that sense independently of any change in rank.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Outside the US commodore was traditionally a position not a rank used for captains commanding a squadron.

Many countries outside the US have an actual rank of Commodore, including my own. And my understanding is that the position of commodore, as you described it, is still used within the USN, too, so it's not just "outside the US". (Perhaps someone who has served in the USN can clarify if this is the case?)

Or for that matter that had always been the case, ie a "commodore" circa TOS being a "fleet captain" (o7?) with an active command of a ship plus squadron.

Decker did not appear to have a squadron.

In what we've seen of TOS, none of the people with a "Fleet Captain" rank were holding active commands, while everyone who was a "Commodore" was.

Well, to be fair, both of the Fleet Captains we saw were not holding active commands due to medical or psychological issues. We really have no idea what they held or didn't hold prior to becoming incapacitated. In Garth's case, I think he had command of a ship because I seem to recall he ordered it to fire on Antos IV, but his crew refused. Although I'm not sure if that's from the episode itself or from a novel? If from the ep, then we can infer that a Fleet Captain had an active command, since it's unlikely Starfleet would promote him after his breakdown.

I personally have no problem with Fleet Captain being an actual Starfleet rank between Captain and Commodore. It helps make Starfleet a little bit different than our current navies, and perhaps reflects an influence of one of the other founding UFP members. Besides, in the TOS scheme, the insignia would slot in so nicely at three full stripes!

 

[Christopher]

Decker did not appear to have a squadron.

He didn't have a crew either. Maybe the planet-killer ate the squadron?

Naah, I guess the dialogue doesn't support that. But maybe the rest of the squadron was somewhere else at the time?

In Garth's case, I think he had command of a ship because I seem to recall he ordered it to fire on Antos IV, but his crew refused. Although I'm not sure if that's from the episode itself or from a novel? If from the ep, then we can infer that a Fleet Captain had an active command, since it's unlikely Starfleet would promote him after his breakdown.

GARTH: I have charted more new worlds than any man in history.
KIRK: And tried to destroy Antos Four. Why?
GARTH: Well, I could say because they were actively hostile to the Federation.
KIRK: Yes, you could say, but that would be untrue.
GARTH: Agreed. Actually they were quite harmless, and they made me whole when I was maimed and dying. And in my gratitude, I offered them the galaxy. They rejected me, and I condemned them to death.
SPOCK: How could you, a starship fleet captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your order to destroy the entire Antos race, a people famous for their benevolence and peaceful pursuits?

 

[Avro Arrow]

^ Awesome, thanks for the actual lines from the episode! (Although, just to let you know, your attribution in the second quote block in your post is referencing the wrong poster.)

 

[Christopher]

^Fixed.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Regarding Decker, he could've been the one coordinating the regional exploration of that sector or area of space. In that Constellation was at the center of it, but had other assets around, including Enterprise?

Also now that you've put up the transcript, Christopher, it doesn't actually seem like Garth's formal title was "fleet captain" but just that "starship fleet" captain is probably the right way to read that line.

 

[The Wormhole]

Outside the US commodore was traditionally a position not a rank used for captains commanding a squadron. It's always possible Starfleet reverted to this usage at some point. Or for that matter that had always been the case, ie a "commodore" circa TOS being a "fleet captain" (o7?) with an active command of a ship plus squadron.

Except in TOS Fleet Captain was a separate rank, held by Pike and Garth. Although in the real world, Fleet Captain is a position, not a rank, 23rd century Starfleet apparently used it as a rank, since Kirk mentioned Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain.

"In the real world" is a loaded term, since again, usage of ranks/positions/titles isn't consistent across every country.

I based it on Wikipedia's entry explaining a Fleet Captain.

 

[JD]

Regarding Decker, he could've been the one coordinating the regional exploration of that sector or area of space. In that Constellation was at the center of it, but had other assets around, including Enterprise?

Also now that you've put up the transcript, Christopher, it doesn't actually seem like Garth's formal title was "fleet captain" but just that "starship fleet" captain is probably the right way to read that line.

I just looked him up on the official Star Trek web sites database and it just says he was a "famous starship captain", so it does sound like he was just a captain of a single ship.
Memory Alpha on the other hand does say he was a Fleet Captain, but I that is probably due to the same misunderstanding that was happening here. I wonder if I should change that?