The Fall of Ben Sisko

[DarKush]

A novel can polarize it's readership, no question. However, it can also bring them together. Writing something for the shock value needs to have a very good reason behind it.

Sisko's actions bringing the Romulans into the Dominion war were shocking and in many ways reprehensible. He may not have done the deed himself but he was satisfied with the outcome. The journey to that point was a fascinating one but there was build up to it. Sisko came down a long, torturous path that brought him to a fork in the road and we were shock, surprised and saddened when the turned left instead of right. We may not have agreed or approved of his decision but we could understand why he did.

Due to the gap in DS9-R, we didn't see the path he took to get to that point. We were told what he did and why he did it. That may be satisfying enough for you, you. You seem to be more interested in where he goes from here. For me, it felt hollow. I'd much rather see the journey that took him to that point and see for myself what he went through in making the decisions that he did. Of course I'm interested in where he goes from here but, seeing as I know what happens, filling in the backstory at this point seems a little pointless. I'm sure that a lot of our questions will be answered but it's just to get us up to the point that we already know where he is.

Some more good points. I don't know if I would ever like the decision to leave his family behind, however if we had seen the evolution/devolution of his thoughts more instead, instead of doing this time jump, I might have been better able to understand Sisko did what he did. I think the time jump and the structure of Rough Beasts itself also didn't help. There were two, maybe three, stories awkward put together in one novel and none of the main characters really got the exploration they deserved.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Granted DS9 went a little overboard with the "Gays only exist in the Mirror Universe!" cliche, but there's a huge difference between a single incident involving one character and multiple incidents with multiple characters.

Just because homosexuals were only shown in the mirror universe doesn't mean they only exist there.

Jadzia was shown attracted to a former host's spouse. The scenes with the 2 of them showed a lesbian attraction. I understand Garak may have also been bisexual.

A Stitch in Time all but explicitly defined Garak as bisexual.

With some mirror characters being gay, I would say this could be a bad depiction since biologically the doubles are the same person, therefore you would expect them to have the same sexual orientation.

Maybe they do.

 

[JarsoRixx]

I got the impression, by the end of RBoE, that Mr. George was laying the foundation for setting the DS9-R onto a new track as a whole. Sisko definitely has the most reconciliation to do at the character level. In the bigger picture, though, the entire DS9 cast (both TV and original characters) has fractured, and if Pocket is going to get back to following DS9 as a series on it's own terms, there is definitely some shuffling to be done. The only major characters even left on the station are Ro, Quark, Prynn, and Bashir. Five (!) of the main characters have been promoted to captain (Sisko, Ro, Kira, Vaughn, and Dax), and not since Star Trek VI have there been more than three captains assigned to one post (and even that was a stretch of logic, but that was the Original Series cast so that was a little easier to suspend disbelief).

So I took much of the action for Sisko in RBoE to be eventually directing him back to becoming the commander of DS9 and the duology will result in him assembling/reassembling the crew. Of course it could just be my wild imagination.

Could Sisko not be promoted to the rank of Commodore/Rear Admiral? And command both a station (whether it be DS9 or a Gamma Quadrant station) and a small fleet of ships assigned to that station. Similar to Commodore Reyes from the Vanguard series. The captains commanding the ships in the fleet could be former officers from DS9 (Ro, Kira, Vaughn, and Dax).

For example: The USS James T. Kirk could be assigned to the station and commanded by Vaughn... It would function in a similar role as the Bombay that was assigned to Vanguard. The workhorse of the fleet.

Just a thought...

 

[MatthiasRussell]

^When Sisko went to Admiral Akaar to be recomissioned, Akaar told him they had enough Admirals but what they needed were starship captains.

Does Starfleet still have a commodore rank in this time period? I've only seen the rank mentioned by Calhoun in Before Dishonor and when he bestowed the honorary rank on Picard.

I also think Akaar didn't want Sisko back in the Bajor sector where he would again be placed in conflict of interest situations.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Granted DS9 went a little overboard with the "Gays only exist in the Mirror Universe!" cliche, but there's a huge difference between a single incident involving one character and multiple incidents with multiple characters.

Just because homosexuals were only shown in the mirror universe doesn't mean they only exist there.

Jadzia was shown attracted to a former host's spouse. The scenes with the 2 of them showed a lesbian attraction. I understand Garak may have also been bisexual.

A Stitch in Time all but explicitly defined Garak as bisexual.

Please refresh my memory.

 

[Sci]

Does Starfleet still have a commodore rank in this time period? I've only seen the rank mentioned by Calhoun in Before Dishonor and when he bestowed the honorary rank on Picard.

I seem to recall a Starfleet commodore appearing in A Time to be Born/Die, and a commodore appeared in Peter David's Vendetta, to which Before Dishonor was a sequel and which is also in continuity with his New Frontier series. And Jonathan Archer achieves the rank of Commodore in The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm.

So I'd be inclined to think that the rank of Commodore still exists, yes. It would be awfully silly to imagine that the Federation Starfleet would establish the rank in 2161, keep it until the 24th Century, and then abolish it in favor of "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" in identical historical parallel to the United States Navy establishing and then renaming the rank.

 

[zarkon]

I think Peter David loves the commodore rank - he also gave it to data in Imzadi.

it is a pretty cool rank though.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Yeah, I only recall PAD using it in a 24th century trek lit setting.

From Memory Alpha:
Commodore (later presumed to be replaced by rear admiral-lower half) is a naval rank, the equivalent of which is used by the service organizations of many civilizations. As a traditional grade, commodore is the most junior flag officer rank of a naval organization, under an admiral rank (usually under rear admiral) but senior to a captain. Commodores command groups of ships, as opposed to captains commanding single ships or units. In comparison to other ranking systems, this rank is equivalent to the military brigadier or brigadier general.
The rank of commodore was used by Starfleet until at least the 2270s. In 2366, Geordi La Forge insulted Centurion Bochra by calling him commodore, to which Bochra promptly corrected La Forge as to his proper title. (TNG: "The Enemy")
La Forge calling Bochra "commodore" was the only time that the rank was ever spoken of in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, I only recall PAD using it in a 24th century trek lit setting.

I found some verification -- Commodore Korgan appeared in A Time to Be Born and A Time to Die by John Vornholt, the first two books in the pre-NEM, post-INS TNG A Time to... miniseries, set in 2378.

Which is good enough for me. Commodores still exist in the 24th Century, it seems.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Does Starfleet still have a commodore rank in this time period? I've only seen the rank mentioned by Calhoun in Before Dishonor and when he bestowed the honorary rank on Picard.

I seem to recall a Starfleet commodore appearing in A Time to be Born/Die, and a commodore appeared in Peter David's Vendetta, to which Before Dishonor was a sequel

Minor nitpick Commodore was used in Before Dishonor not Vendetta.

 

[Sci]

Does Starfleet still have a commodore rank in this time period? I've only seen the rank mentioned by Calhoun in Before Dishonor and when he bestowed the honorary rank on Picard.

I seem to recall a Starfleet commodore appearing in A Time to be Born/Die, and a commodore appeared in Peter David's Vendetta, to which Before Dishonor was a sequel

Minor nitpick Commodore was used in Before Dishonor not Vendetta.

I distinctly remember there either being a commodore in Vendetta, or the rank of commodore being referred to as existing.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Meh. Your "A Time To . . . " citation is good enough for me.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I distinctly remember there either being a commodore in Vendetta, or the rank of commodore being referred to as existing.

There is mention of the USS Curie, the rescue ship commanded by Commodore (Dr.) Terman. Found that on Memory Alpha.

Being a sequel to TOS's "The Doomsday Machine", there would also have been a reference to the 23rd century's Commodore Decker.

 

[zarkon]

Does Starfleet still have a commodore rank in this time period? I've only seen the rank mentioned by Calhoun in Before Dishonor and when he bestowed the honorary rank on Picard.

I seem to recall a Starfleet commodore appearing in A Time to be Born/Die, and a commodore appeared in Peter David's Vendetta, to which Before Dishonor was a sequel

Minor nitpick Commodore was used in Before Dishonor not Vendetta.

It's both, the doctor who leads the penzatti mop-up has the flag rank of commodore.

 

[JarsoRixx]

I also remember vaguely, commodores being mentioned in one of the Dominion War novels (or maybe it was a novelization of one of the Dominion War episodes). There were Starfleet commodores involved in major battles against the Dominion.

Makes sense, commodores are basically senior captains and not quite an admiral. They would probably be in charge of commanding a fleet of ships. And when several fleets got together (and there was more than one commodore) I suppose an admiral would be in command of the combined fleets (such as Admiral Ross)...

 

[Sci]

Makes sense, commodores are basically senior captains and not quite an admiral.

Well, no, a commodore is the most junior type of flag officer, which is what an admiral is; they literally just changed the name of the commodore rank to "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" in the U.S. Navy. It's the equivalent of a U.S. Army Brigadier General. So, yes, basically a commodore is an admiral who's just not called an admiral.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I seem to recall a Starfleet commodore appearing in A Time to be Born/Die, and a commodore appeared in Peter David's Vendetta, to which Before Dishonor was a sequel

Minor nitpick Commodore was used in Before Dishonor not Vendetta.

It's both, the doctor who leads the penzatti mop-up has the flag rank of commodore.

I stand corrected.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Makes sense, commodores are basically senior captains and not quite an admiral.

Well, no, a commodore is the most junior type of flag officer, which is what an admiral is; they literally just changed the name of the commodore rank to "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" in the U.S. Navy. It's the equivalent of a U.S. Army Brigadier General. So, yes, basically a commodore is an admiral who's just not called an admiral.

But that wasn't always the case. It's been a line rank, a flag rank and a title throughout history. It has indeed been used as JarsoRixx said to distinguish the senior captain in a fleet. TOS was likely using it in that fashion as we saw commodores in field command of either single vessels, multiple vessels, or starbases.

It was sort of the back and forth nature of commodore as either a rank or a title that led to its eventual disuse in the U.S. Navy in the '80s. Currently, it's a title awarded to senior captains (one of which who just recently got fired for being too much of a wild boy in Bahrain).
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/04/navy-bahrain-bash-commodore-david-geisler-040812w/

 

[RPJOB]

Let's not forget that there's also Fleet Captain, a rank held by Pike and Garth of Izar. Kirk did say that he met Pike when "He was promoted to Fleet Captain". This points towards it being a rank and not just a title.

Perhaps Fleet Captain is more analogous to Squadron Commander, being in command of a task force within a larger fleet that would be commanded by a Commodore. For example, something similar to the Voyager Fleet would be commanded by a Fleet Captain with the overall mission being commanded by a Commodore who may or not be physically present.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Let's not forget that there's also Fleet Captain, a rank held by Pike and Garth of Izar. Kirk did say that he met Pike when "He was promoted to Fleet Captain". This points towards it being a rank and not just a title.

Perhaps Fleet Captain is more analogous to Squadron Commander, being in command of a task force within a larger fleet that would be commanded by a Commodore. For example, something similar to the Voyager Fleet would be commanded by a Fleet Captain with the overall mission being commanded by a Commodore who may or not be physically present.

I always liked to think that the TOS sleeve insignia for a fleet captain was three solid stripes.