The establishment of how the Klingons get the warp ability

[MetalDog]

I knew that the Klingons developed the warp drive by reverse engineering the remaining Hur'q technologies.
Since the Klingons obviously weren't so advanced in science when the Hur'q invaded, I think that it's impressive that they eventually succeeded.
Well, my question is: was the way of the Klingons developing the warp drive established in any TV episode?
Or was it established in other books?

 

[Timo]

It wasn't established on screen. Nor was much established about the Hur'q - DS9 "The Sword of Kahless" describes them as hit-and-run raiders rather than an oppressive occupying force, and ENT "Affliction" just name-drops them as invaders.

It's indeed the novels that take the Hur'q concept and evolve it towards what Barbara Hambly originally did with a species she called Karsids. The Hertzler&Lang The Left Hand of Destiny expands on the occupation and oppression concept, and Keith DeCandido's The Art of the Impossible describes how the Klingons got their FTL from the rebellion against the Hur'q.

You could also check out Hambly's Ishmael to see how the Hur'q compare to the Karsids; IMHO, they could well be the same folks, seen through two different lenses.

Outside this, there's DS9 "Little Green Men" where Quark gets stuck in the year 1947 and dreams of selling the secret of warp drive to the Ferengi, giving them a head start of "centuries" on humans, Klingons and Vulcans. But "centuries" is already very much stretching it as regards humans, and we know Vulcans were interstellar long before 1947 even if warp drive isn't explicated as their means. So we might be best off ignoring Quark, or rather thinking that now that he has the secret of time travel down pat, he will conduct the sale even farther back in history. After all, if he didn't have faith in further travel, he'd be stuck on Earth anyway. Thus, no real information on Klingon warp drive there...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MetalDog]

It wasn't established on screen. Nor was much established about the Hur'q - DS9 "The Sword of Kahless" describes them as hit-and-run raiders rather than an oppressive occupying force, and ENT "Affliction" just name-drops them as invaders.

It's indeed the novels that take the Hur'q concept and evolve it towards what Barbara Hambly originally did with a species she called Karsids. The Hertzler&Lang The Left Hand of Destiny expands on the occupation and oppression concept, and Keith DeCandido's The Art of the Impossible describes how the Klingons got their FTL from the rebellion against the Hur'q.

You could also check out Hambly's Ishmael to see how the Hur'q compare to the Karsids; IMHO, they could well be the same folks, seen through two different lenses.

Outside this, there's DS9 "Little Green Men" where Quark gets stuck in the year 1947 and dreams of selling the secret of warp drive to the Ferengi, giving them a head start of "centuries" on humans, Klingons and Vulcans. But "centuries" is already very much stretching it as regards humans, and we know Vulcans were interstellar long before 1947 even if warp drive isn't explicated as their means. So we might be best off ignoring Quark, or rather thinking that now that he has the secret of time travel down pat, he will conduct the sale even farther back in history. After all, if he didn't have faith in further travel, he'd be stuck on Earth anyway. Thus, no real information on Klingon warp drive there...

Timo Saloniemi

Thank you! But if the Hur'q only wanted to raid and run, they were a very careless bunch which leaving nearly intact warp drive for reverse engineering.

 

[Longinus]

Thank you! But if the Hur'q only wanted to raid and run, they were a very careless bunch which leaving nearly intact warp drive for reverse engineering.

Well, we don't know if that's how Klingons got their warp drive. It is possible that they invented it independently much later, only thing learned from Hur'q being that interstellar travel (and raiding!) was indeed theoretically possible.

 

[Tomalak]

It's been a while since I saw the episode, but how were the Hur'q supposed to have got from the Gamma Quadrant to the Klingons?

If "Hur'q" is just a generic Klingon name for "Viking" - a generic band of raiders from across the water - it could fit any number of attackers in early Klingon history.

 

[Timo]

We don't know if the Hur'q came from Gamma. All we know is that the Sword ended up in Gamma, supposedly meaning at least one band of Hur'q ended up there. Kor calls the bunch "the great plunderers of the galaxy", and believes that the Gamma planet on which the sword is hidden is the Hur'q homeworld or other major Hur'q asset - but he's composing a saga there, not quoting research results.

As for how specific "Hur'q" is, Dax identifies "Hur'q DNA" on the shroud that Kor presents as evidence. Supposedly, then, one specific species.

Even when "The Sword of Kahless" goes to all sorts of detail, it fails to reveal what Klingons were like a thousand years before the show when the Hur'q came and went. Supposedly, adding 400 years to that would bring us to the early Klingon iron age, if Kahless indeed forged the first-ever sword. But the evidence on that is ambiguous; perhaps Kahless just forged the first-ever bat'leth out of a farming implement in his hovercar garage after the Hur'q had confiscated his disruptor rifle?

For all we know, the Hur'q hit a fully warp-capable Qo'noS, drawn in by encounters with wandering Klingons. But it's equally possible they subdued an early iron age culture, taught it to do their laundry and gamma welding for them, and suffered the consequences. The novels go for the latter version, but canon purists can go for the former.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Retu]

One thing that's also been hinted in the novels is that a working warp drive itself isn't that difficult build. The difficult part is the physics and math, which you first have to develop and solve before you know how to build the thing. So once Klingons got their hands on a working model, building a duplicate wasn't a problem. It might have taken them a couple of centuries to figure out how the thing worked, though.

 

[UnknownSample]

It makes sense of course that Klingons would have to reverse engineer it. It's hard to see them as inventors. Thanks everyone, I'd missed this Klingon backstory.

 

[Albertese]

I always liked the Hur'Q as invaders of iron age Klingon people. In fact, I kinda got this impression from "The Sword of Kahless" when I first watched it. This thread is the first I've ever heard of all this other non-on-screen evidence.

--Alex

 

[Tomalak]

It makes sense of course that Klingons would have to reverse engineer it. It's hard to see them as inventors. Thanks everyone, I'd missed this Klingon backstory.

They are certainly conquerors by nature, or at least they like to tell people they are.

There must obviously be scientists, diplomats, doctors, politicians, chefs, opera singers and artists within Klingon society - we see them in the various series and films, albeit not as many as we do warriors. But then by the same logic that means we don't see many Federations who aren't in Starfleet, we tend to disproportionately see Klingon warriors on their starships.

Some Klingons will be prized innovators and inventors, which is a perfectly honourable pursuit. They've got cloaking devices, warp engines, transporters, shields and tricorders, all apparently comparable with anything the Federation and Romulans can produce. Stealing or buying sounds like something a Ferengi would do.

They like to tell people that honour is the most important thing, but that's just PR. The most important thing for them is clearly winning - which is why there are so many ruthless politicians conspiring against each other to gain power. In that society, the scientists would be highly prized as people who can help deliver victory. The strongest and bravest Warrior won't find much glory if he or she can't even leave the planet. They might not have the statues to prove it, but I bet they are well-rewarded.

 

[B.J.]

I always liked the Hur'Q as invaders of iron age Klingon people. In fact, I kinda got this impression from "The Sword of Kahless" when I first watched it. This thread is the first I've ever heard of all this other non-on-screen evidence.

My thoughts exactly. Haven't read any of the novels dealing with them either.

 

[Longinus]

It makes sense of course that Klingons would have to reverse engineer it. It's hard to see them as inventors. Thanks everyone, I'd missed this Klingon backstory.

Eh, Klingons are not stupid. They certainly value technology, especially the kind of technology that allows war and conquest. There's no reason to think that they would be incapable of inventing the warp drive on their own.

 

[FormerLurker]

It should be noted here that what little information we have about the Hur'Q states that "Hur'Q" is a Klingon word, an extension or bastardization of "Hur", meaning Foreign or Alien. It's no more addressing them formally than it is to call the Predator species "Hunters", or the Klingons "The Forehead Guys".

As far as it goes, this isn't canon to my knowledge. But I accept it as plausible headcanon, at least for now.

 

[Timo]

. It's no more addressing them formally than it is to call the Predator species "Hunters", or the Klingons "The Forehead Guys".

Except it's the only name by which this species is known - and it is a species, with DNA specific to it. It's not particularly informal, then, either.

We don't have exact parallels from Earth history, as there's only one species of note on our planet, and when it's divided into peoples, the division is quite arbitrary. But Vikings are Vikings specifically, even if the word simply means pillagers. And conversely, very specific people such as Vandals can become a generic concept such as vandals.

As for inventiveness, in the Trek universe it's difficult to know what is invented and what is borrowed, because the species readily interact with each other. But warp drive is something certain species do invent before meeting anybody else, warp being a prerequisite for meeting the others in the first place. So while there are other mechanisms known and postulated (buying, stealing, finding), we at least know it is possible to invent warp, and no doubt Klingons could have done that, too. But from the first sword to warp drive in just a thousand years? That'd make the Klingons easily ten times more inventive than humans, and I don't think we see that in the 23rd and 24th centuries any more.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Triumphant]

But warp drive is something certain species do invent before meeting anybody else, warp being a prerequisite for meeting the others in the first place.

This seems to me to be a leap in two different ways.
1. You don't want to have invented warp or any space travel at all to meet anyone else if *they* have FTL and show up in your back yard one day, and
2. There are technologies aside from warp drive that would allow the travel to meet others. Subspace transporters being the first to come to mind at the moment.

 

[Timo]

Cases like "First Contact" prove that native invention of warp drive is a valid method of losing your interstellar virginity, even if it isn't necessarily the Klingon one. OTOH, we never hear of a civilization reaching out to space by means other than warp travel; things like subspace radio or fancy teleportation only enter the picture after the discovery of warp drive, as far as we can tell.

That our heroes on occasion intercept a sublight vessel or a radio transmission is not really a contact situation, as the heroes could and often would refuse contact - and the villains supposedly would just ransack the vessel and ignore the transmission. Yes, they could also home in like sharks to spilled blood, but supposedly they generally don't. After all, there are plenty of natives with their virginity intact and left for the UFP to worry about.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

2. There are technologies aside from warp drive that would allow the travel to meet others. Subspace transporters being the first to come to mind at the moment.

Whilst I would gladly forget that this stupid technology was ever mentioned, it at least seems to be really advanced tech, much more so than warp drive. Any civilization with such a tech would must have first mastered both warp drive and transporters.

 

[Longinus]

So while there are other mechanisms known and postulated (buying, stealing, finding), we at least know it is possible to invent warp, and no doubt Klingons could have done that, too. But from the first sword to warp drive in just a thousand years? That'd make the Klingons easily ten times more inventive than humans, and I don't think we see that in the 23rd and 24th centuries any more.

I thought it was said that the Sword of Kahless was the first Bat'leth, not the first sword of any type. There is a story about Kahless' brother throwing a sword belonging to their father into the lake. I think Klingons were at medieval tech level during the life of Kahless.

 

[Timo]

Any civilization with such a tech would must have first mastered both warp drive and transporters.

Or otherwise acquired the secrets - the Ansata terrorists weren't scientific geniuses as such, just determined folks with access to the internet. But yes, it seems very much the case that warp drive is a relatively easy thing to discover, while the other stuff doesn't follow trivially, let alone precede trivially.

I thought it was said that the Sword of Kahless was the first Bat'leth, not the first sword of any type. There is a story about Kahless' brother throwing a sword belonging to their father into the lake.

Excellent point.

I think Klingons were at medieval tech level during the life of Kahless.

Or then not. They have swords and walls. But in the 24th century, they still have swords and walls.

Kahless might have been quite literally telling his apostles to meet him next month at Boreth, until an untimely death put a kink in those plans, the apostles missed their flight, and the brief exchange was forgotten for centuries, ultimately gaining a mythological tint...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

Kahless might have been quite literally telling his apostles to meet him next month at Boreth, until an untimely death put a kink in those plans, the apostles missed their flight, and the brief exchange was forgotten for centuries, ultimately gaining a mythological tint...

Whilst this possible, I don't think it exactly a good interpretation. If Klingons would have had warp drive that long, they would have already conquered Earth by now.