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The end of capitalism in the ST universe...?

The Federation uses money a bit. Mostly on certain borders where money and trade happen. The Federation Credit exists and we see Worf use some. I'd think that in most of the Federation though the money is not needed.
Where does the fresh food come from? Apparently everyone works for free and most of the food is probably replicated these days anyways.
 
Federation credits are probably not currency.
They are something akin to rations (such as replicator, holodeck rations) which can be traded to get specific things or they're mostly reserved for SF officers and not the Federation as a whole.

I can probably understand the possible need for currency on border worlds for example (mostly gold pressed latinum) where trade would be most prominent feature when used with species who still use currency ...
But 99% of the time we saw SF and the Federation as a whole engage in trading ... most notably exchange of resources (one material good for another material good) because they don't use money or currency based system.

As for humans who engaged in pursuit of profit ... all of them mostly didn't want to do anything with the Federation, and in order to get out of Federation space to live their little comfortable lives far away, they'd need some form of material/resource from the Federation which would enable them to change it for currency or some kind of other material good that ensured their 'comfortable existence' away from the Federation.
 
To me, the only way those bits about no money, etc work is if you confine it to the Sol System.

Earth may be a paradise. The colonies, not so much.

So Terrans don't need money, can live on a philosophy of self-improvement, whatever.

Past Pluto, though, and while that may be the case on select core worlds, it mostly is not.
 
When you think about it, access to very cheap and abundant and/or free energy would make us all very wealthy. I think that is the basis of societal wealth in Trek. Abundant energy and the means to turn that energy into matter. That sort of technology would enable everyone to live like billionaires. Once wealth was so easily generated by anyone who wanted it, then it would cease to be as important and people would then start to better themselves personally and intellectually rather than worrying about amassing more wealth.
 
Similar things that were "destined to last forever" like slavery, monarchy, smallpox, polio etc have been eliminated today.

One of my favorite shows is a British sci-fi show called Doctor Who. In a recent episode, the two main characters traveled to the far future, where they discovered that that era's humanity was using a sentient alien species for slave labor. The central character, the Doctor, noted that things weren't all that much different from the other main character's (Donna's) era, the present. Donna, appalled, turned to the Doctor and demanded to know how he could say that when the humans of the 42nd Century used slaves. The Doctor just turned to her and said, "Who do you think made your clothes?"

Slavery has been eliminated today? Really? That'll come as a surprise to many people living today in the Sudan, or to the millions of women kidnapped and forcibly transported across international borders for the sex trade. To say nothing of the millions of people who work incredibly long hours on dangerous or unhealthy work for wages so low that they might as well be slaves, or about the millions of children who are essentially enslaved by predatory lenders as repayment on their families' debts.

Monarchy hasn't been eliminated, either. Obviously it exists in a ceremonial form in Europe, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, amongst others. But it exists in a dictatorial form in countries like Saudi Arabia, Jodan, and Tongo, too, and up until a recent revolution, in Nepal.

As for greed being in human nature, there is no biological basis for greed

Yes there is. People want things. They want things and they want security and they always have. That's why you have to socialize children into sharing their toys and into not over-eating -- because we're a species that evolved in habitats were resources were scarce and if you weren't greedy enough, you'd die.

Perhaps some posters here should look up the term ethnocentrism, there are many cultures whos entire basis is cooperation not compitition, just because many critical aspects of the dominant western culture currently rely on greed and professional gambling (or as we call it investing) does not mean this is the way it has to me forever.

Sure. And those cultures are very successful at socializing people into cooperating rather than competition. But this does not mean that greed does not exist amongst them.


In any event, trying to pin down the Federation economy is very difficult be we we've gotten mutually contradictory information throughout Trek. In TOS, we see Federation civilian merchants and hear of people buying things like tribbles with Federation Credits -- apparently the Federation's form of electronic currency in the 23rd Century. Kirk talks about Scotty earning his pay for the week. Scotty says he's bought a boat in Star Trek VI. On the other hand, Kirk in Star Trek IV notes that humans in the 20th Century still use money, implying that humans in the 23rd Century do not.

In TNG, of course, we get Picard's famously self-righteous sermons about how humanity no longer uses money and how greed is not the driving force of humanity in "The Neutral Zone" or Star Trek: First Contact. On the other hand, Beverly talks about buying something from Farpoint Station and having it charged to her account, and the Federation, in bargaining for the Barzan Wormhole, proposes to pay the Barzans millions of credits. Kevin Uxbridge is referred to by his wife as having been a "starving student" when she met him in "The Survivors," a phrase that makes no sense outside of the context of a society wherein people can accumulate wealth of some sort.

In DS9, Jake repeats the party line to Nog about how humans have evolved beyond the need for money in "In the Cards" (to which Nog replies, "Then you certainly don't need mine!") and references having a book of his about life under Dominion rule published by the Federation News Service but not getting paid for it in "You Are Cordially Invited. On the other hand, we constantly see characters paying Quark for his food and drink at his bar. We also hear that Quark sold his (sabotaged) private shuttle for scrap in the Sol system and then bought a ticket back to Deep Space 9 in "Little Green Men." Bashir's father talks about having run an interstellar transport business and about the importance of treating his customers well in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and "Honor Among Thieves" features the Bank of Bolias, a bank on a Federation Member planet from which the Orion Syndicate steals a great deal of money. In "Explorers," Sisko mentions that he was so homesick when he first joined Starfleet Academy that he used up a month's worth of "transporter credits."

VOY contains next to no information about Federation economics, except that Tom Paris in "Dark Frontier" refers to the "New World Economy" taking shape in the 22nd Century and "money going the way of the dinosaur," thus rendering Fort Knox obsolete.

ENT confirms that by 2151, humanity has put greed behind it. In "Acquisition," Archer tells the Ferengi that their greed reminds them of his species' former greed, and notes that that greed nearly destroyed Earth (implying that there were economic causes to World War III). The Ferengi reply, "You should have managed your finances better!" However, we hear references to the continued existence of money in "These Are the Voyages...," implying that some form of currency-based economics continues in the 22nd Century. This is consistent with the continued existence of money in TOS.

In short, Trek basically wants to have its cake and eat it, too, when it comes to the question of money. I would, therefore, propose the following:

In the United Federation of Planets, no one needs money to survive or be healthy. Resources are so abundant that if someone has no ambition, they can apply for and be assigned free housing. They can receive free, nutritious food, and free health care. They can probably even get a free newsfeed so that they're not totally disconnected from the rest of the world and can still exercise their civic duty to vote as an informed elector.

However, there's a trade-off there. You don't get to pick where you'll live. You're not going to get a large house. You'll get what you need to be healthy, and that's it. No luxuries. Even if resources are abundant, why should society reward a lack of ambition, a lack of any desire to contribute to society?

So someone who wants more -- who wants a large house, or a lot of channels on their comm screens, or who wishes to own many books, or who wants to live on the Pacific coast on oceanfront property, has the option of taking private or public employment. There, they can earn Federation Credits in return for their work, and can use their credits however they wish.

There are probably still rich people, but significant wealth can no longer be inherited -- it has to be earned. There are no more corporations, because, let's face it, those things are just plain evil, and even Adam Smith wouldn't argue with that. There's still free trade, but it's no longer the defining feature of society.

I think all this is consistent with what we've seen throughout Trek. It's a Capitalist-Socialist hybrid -- the best of both worlds. Everyone is taken care of, but no one is coddled, and ambition is rewarded. No one is homeless and no one starves, but no one gets to just leech off of the public, either.
 
Some very good points made here.

As to the greed thing, I think were using it in too broad a way, I refer to greed in the sense of "I want a BMW because my neighbour has one"

Rather than recognising there are scarce resources and trying to aquire them for yourself.

SOME form of currency akin to money has to exist, maybe credits are not money as we would understand it, some form of money has to exist to allocate resources that are NOT replicated.

But take Siskos restraunt. THe food is cooked there not replicated, so it has to be grown, transported etc.
Now you could say the cooking and transport are done free as they don't use up an resource besides time (and fuel which does not seem to be an issue)
But there has to be some kind of price, otherwise people would be eating every meal in the restraunt and Sisko would run out of supplies frequently and end up like a shop in the old soviet union, shortages and empty shelves
 
Some very good points made here.

As to the greed thing, I think were using it in too broad a way, I refer to greed in the sense of "I want a BMW because my neighbour has one"

Rather than recognising there are scarce resources and trying to aquire them for yourself.

SOME form of currency akin to money has to exist, maybe credits are not money as we would understand it, some form of money has to exist to allocate resources that are NOT replicated.

But take Siskos restraunt. THe food is cooked there not replicated, so it has to be grown, transported etc.
Now you could say the cooking and transport are done free as they don't use up an resource besides time (and fuel which does not seem to be an issue)
But there has to be some kind of price, otherwise people would be eating every meal in the restraunt and Sisko would run out of supplies frequently and end up like a shop in the old soviet union, shortages and empty shelves

Yeah. Not just that, but, let's not forget that time is a resource. What incentive do I have to grow crops, or transport them, or transport other supplies, to Joseph's restaurant if I'm not getting compensated in some way?
 
Some very good points made here.

As to the greed thing, I think were using it in too broad a way, I refer to greed in the sense of "I want a BMW because my neighbour has one"

Rather than recognising there are scarce resources and trying to aquire them for yourself.

SOME form of currency akin to money has to exist, maybe credits are not money as we would understand it, some form of money has to exist to allocate resources that are NOT replicated.

But take Siskos restraunt. THe food is cooked there not replicated, so it has to be grown, transported etc.
Now you could say the cooking and transport are done free as they don't use up an resource besides time (and fuel which does not seem to be an issue)
But there has to be some kind of price, otherwise people would be eating every meal in the restraunt and Sisko would run out of supplies frequently and end up like a shop in the old soviet union, shortages and empty shelves

Yeah. Not just that, but, let's not forget that time is a resource. What incentive do I have to grow crops, or transport them, or transport other supplies, to Joseph's restaurant if I'm not getting compensated in some way?

Careful with the ethnocentrism there.
Our current economic model and society depends to a large extent on fiancial incentive, but as was said before, capitalism has only existed in its present form for a tiny sliver of human history.

The impression ST gives us is that people do the jobs they want to do, the jobs they enjoy.
Perhaps presteige is the new function that financial incentive used to fill, ie in the Siskos restraunt case say "I only use Big mommas potatoes, they're the best"
 
The food Sisko is using might as well be replicated, or simply regularly grown away from the city by people who enjoy farm work (they do exist you know ... and most of the harder labor would be done by automated systems which would enable humans to pay better attention at the crops and how they are grown).
And then Sisko compensates them in other ways for example like having them as his honored guests or preparing special meals just for them ... or he does nothing at all do compensates them because the people who grow this food on their own accord do it for their own pleasure.
They have access to their own food, and others have access to their food which is used by other people.
Simply because people have a hard time wrapping their heads around giving away something and expecting nothing in return (when in fact they have everything they need in terms of food/clothing/living/energy/ you name it) is not my problem.

I agree that 'greed' is used way too much and broadly.
Some people simply aren't greedy and why is it so hard to think that in the future, Humans were able to overcome that inadequacy?
We live in a completely different world in comparison to Trek humans.
This isn't the technologically developed world of the late 24th century Federation, and as such we simply cannot make a comparison between mentality of those people with ours.
Plus some of the behavior they demonstrated to be 'closer to us' was highly unrealistic.
Keep in mind the show was made by 20/21st century humans for the 20/21st century audience.
People cringe when they don't see them at each others throats.
I find it a refreshing change because it shows that they are able to resolve arguments without resorting to needless physical fighting (which is only a sign of intellectual inadequacy anyway to solve problems in a calm manner).

As for non-replicable materials ... most of the people would have no need for them as all of their needs are met easily through replicators and whatnot.
Also, keep in mind the government probably wants to ensure that everyone are well taken cared of and have access to a variety of possibilities by default while expecting NOTHING in return (an effective way to prove to people that the government actually CARES).
Plus, people would probably go stir crazy from not doing anything for prolonged periods of time.
Trek humans operate on the principle of wanting to feel useful somehow.
So using that premise and way of thinking would ensure a great deal of people to work in the fields they actually enjoy which the government takes notice of.
Needs for medium class citizens for example, poverty, medical care, access to education and possibilities for jobs are met by the government.

So currency based economy doesn't have to exist in order for them to manage resources.
They have them in abundance for one thing, and they would be able to implement those techniques even in Archers era.
The key was changing human mentality from the present one, which apparently they did.

As for on-screen references such as 'You just earned your pay for the week' are probably NOT to be meant taken seriously, but actually more along the lines of 'well done'.

As for the Federation 'purchasing' the Barzan wormhole ...
I never heard any mention of credits in the episode for one thing, and the 'purchase' was a general term which implied TRADING.
The Barzans needed resources for their planet ... why bother with 'credits' if they can trade appropriate amount of resources for the wormhole from the Feds in the get go?

And as for Beverly using 'Federation credits' ... to my knowledge that was the only reference in the whole Star Trek, and the term could mean practically anything.
 
I always took it to mean that there was no physical currency. There would have to be a system of resource allocation somewhere otherwise it'd be complete anarchy... that's what I take "credits" to mean.
 
I always took it to mean that there was no physical currency. There would have to be a system of resource allocation somewhere otherwise it'd be complete anarchy... that's what I take "credits" to mean.

Resource allocation sounds more like it.
Take for example replicator/holodeck rations ... federation credits are likely akin to that ... but taking into consideration we only heard of the term once or possibly twice, it could easily be disregarded as a mishap and ignore it completely.
People use them all the time to trade for items they need when in emergency for example (for example: Paris did so with Neelix in order to avoid being pummeled by Be'Lanna). :D
 
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I think we can see now why they kept it vague, they didn't want to get into politics it would distract from the show, given the HYSTERICAL fear in the USA of anything left wing (I've even heard many call the democratic party socialists, which, if you understand what socialism means, is about as accurate as calling President Bush a pacifist), this was probably wise.
 
Replicator/holodeck rations are a shipboard means of conserving energy. I doubt they would apply to a planet wide civilian population.
 
Replicator/holodeck rations are a shipboard means of conserving energy. I doubt they would apply to a planet wide civilian population.

They damm well should.

Can you imagine how addictive holodecks would be?
Say you hated your real life (like Barcley) and either didn't have the assertivness or confidence to improve/change it or were unable to, it would be a great escape.
 
Replicator/holodeck rations are a shipboard means of conserving energy. I doubt they would apply to a planet wide civilian population.

They damm well should.

Can you imagine how addictive holodecks would be?
Say you hated your real life (like Barcley) and either didn't have the assertivness or confidence to improve/change it or were unable to, it would be a great escape.
Would it be any different in context to a weak minded person today being hooked on going to the theater or a television show? People in the future who grew up with holodecks and replicators probably wouldn't give them a second thought. No more so than we give the local multiplex when we drive by.
 
Replicator/holodeck rations are a shipboard means of conserving energy. I doubt they would apply to a planet wide civilian population.

They damm well should.

Can you imagine how addictive holodecks would be?
Say you hated your real life (like Barcley) and either didn't have the assertivness or confidence to improve/change it or were unable to, it would be a great escape.
Would it be any different in context to a weak minded person today being hooked on going to the theater or a television show? People in the future who grew up with holodecks and replicators probably wouldn't give them a second thought. No more so than we give the local multiplex when we drive by.

Very good point it may be just when they are introduced at first it would be an issue.

A few of the technologies in ST would be downright dangerious in a capitalist society, imagine some guy invented the replaicator and under current "free" market rules got a patent on it, hed be very powerful
 
Some very good points made here.

As to the greed thing, I think were using it in too broad a way, I refer to greed in the sense of "I want a BMW because my neighbour has one"

Rather than recognising there are scarce resources and trying to aquire them for yourself.

SOME form of currency akin to money has to exist, maybe credits are not money as we would understand it, some form of money has to exist to allocate resources that are NOT replicated.

But take Siskos restraunt. THe food is cooked there not replicated, so it has to be grown, transported etc.
Now you could say the cooking and transport are done free as they don't use up an resource besides time (and fuel which does not seem to be an issue)
But there has to be some kind of price, otherwise people would be eating every meal in the restraunt and Sisko would run out of supplies frequently and end up like a shop in the old soviet union, shortages and empty shelves

Yeah. Not just that, but, let's not forget that time is a resource. What incentive do I have to grow crops, or transport them, or transport other supplies, to Joseph's restaurant if I'm not getting compensated in some way?

Careful with the ethnocentrism there.
Our current economic model and society depends to a large extent on fiancial incentive, but as was said before, capitalism has only existed in its present form for a tiny sliver of human history.

The impression ST gives us is that people do the jobs they want to do, the jobs they enjoy.
Perhaps presteige is the new function that financial incentive used to fill, ie in the Siskos restraunt case say "I only use Big mommas potatoes, they're the best"


I think that that is a very important point. Our failure to comprehend how the Federation's economy works is a problem with US. It does not mean that its impossible or impractical. We've been socialized to believe that ammasing lots of material wealth is critical. However in the past plenty of socieities managed to exist without such an impulse. In many situations it was more important that the community survive more so than the individual. In the Federation, material gain is just not important. Instead the Federation values knowledge and expansion. In thier situation they deem it of vital importance that all segments of their society remain strong and virbant....especially in the face of a hostile universe. Thier philosophy has made the Federation the envy of the galaxy.


One might also consider the possiblity that greed, like violence, might be considered a pathos in the Federation. One might be considered mentally ill for trying to amass material wealth. The federation government may clamp down hard on those who engage in profit seeking.
 
I'd imagine the only thing people would have trouble getting would be larger objects that need industrial sized replicators. Things like large pieces of furniture, ships and housing.

I would think that jobs would still have their perks. I doubt your average joe has access to his own warp capable ship. I'm sure transportation is available much likes buses today (but better and free) but I doubt most people actually own a shuttle or something. Also most people probably don't own a transporter.

So there's still a lot of pretty major stuff people can't just get. People could get these things through their job. If you were a trader you could probably get your hands on a ship. If you want furniture you could probably order one and have it transporter but I'd imagine there'd be a limit so you don't order 100 couches lol.

The job you have in the Trek universe can give you access to odd goods like ships and transporters or raise the limit of what you can have. If you're in the restaurant business you get access to more fresh food. If you're in the fishing business you can get yourself a boat. Some jobs may offer larger housing. Some jobs may offer the chance to explore. Some jobs may get you more holodeck time. Some jobs may offer something you're specifically interested in.

Sure, in Trek you can get by really easily doing basically nothing but there's always more stuff to have. I think the materialism is still there, just less pronounced and more in the form of opportunities and things that are just plain bonuses.
 
Yeah. Not just that, but, let's not forget that time is a resource. What incentive do I have to grow crops, or transport them, or transport other supplies, to Joseph's restaurant if I'm not getting compensated in some way?

Careful with the ethnocentrism there.
Our current economic model and society depends to a large extent on fiancial incentive, but as was said before, capitalism has only existed in its present form for a tiny sliver of human history.

The impression ST gives us is that people do the jobs they want to do, the jobs they enjoy.
Perhaps presteige is the new function that financial incentive used to fill, ie in the Siskos restraunt case say "I only use Big mommas potatoes, they're the best"


I think that that is a very important point. Our failure to comprehend how the Federation's economy works is a problem with US. It does not mean that its impossible or impractical. We've been socialized to believe that ammasing lots of material wealth is critical. However in the past plenty of socieities managed to exist without such an impulse. In many situations it was more important that the community survive more so than the individual. In the Federation, material gain is just not important. Instead the Federation values knowledge and expansion. In thier situation they deem it of vital importance that all segments of their society remain strong and virbant....especially in the face of a hostile universe. Thier philosophy has made the Federation the envy of the galaxy.


One might also consider the possiblity that greed, like violence, might be considered a pathos in the Federation. One might be considered mentally ill for trying to amass material wealth. The federation government may clamp down hard on those who engage in profit seeking.

That would be incredibly tyrannical. Violence violates someone else's rights and creates a victim. Greed, on the other hand, does not necessarily harm other people if it is channeled into the proper mediums. A government that would treat greed as a reason to restrict a person's liberty violates the "harm principle" as espoused in On Liberty by John Stuart Mill and would be engaging in what we today would refer to as a human rights violation.

As much as you guys like to prattle on about the ethnocentrism of capitalism, the fact remains that resources are limited and have to be divided between people, that greed has always existed and will always exist. The question is not whether or not the Federation is capitalist -- it clearly isn't, and it's clear that even if greed remains a motivator, it's no longer the primary motivator in Federation society. The question is whether or not money exists in the Federation. The information we've gotten is blatantly contradictory; the only way to reconcile things is to presume that there's a system in place that we would today describe as a functional hybrid of Socialism and Capitalism, combining the best of both.
 
Yeah. Not just that, but, let's not forget that time is a resource. What incentive do I have to grow crops, or transport them, or transport other supplies, to Joseph's restaurant if I'm not getting compensated in some way?

Careful with the ethnocentrism there.
Our current economic model and society depends to a large extent on fiancial incentive, but as was said before, capitalism has only existed in its present form for a tiny sliver of human history.

The impression ST gives us is that people do the jobs they want to do, the jobs they enjoy.
Perhaps presteige is the new function that financial incentive used to fill, ie in the Siskos restraunt case say "I only use Big mommas potatoes, they're the best"


I think that that is a very important point. Our failure to comprehend how the Federation's economy works is a problem with US. It does not mean that its impossible or impractical. We've been socialized to believe that ammasing lots of material wealth is critical. However in the past plenty of socieities managed to exist without such an impulse. In many situations it was more important that the community survive more so than the individual. In the Federation, material gain is just not important. Instead the Federation values knowledge and expansion. In thier situation they deem it of vital importance that all segments of their society remain strong and virbant....especially in the face of a hostile universe. Thier philosophy has made the Federation the envy of the galaxy.


One might also consider the possiblity that greed, like violence, might be considered a pathos in the Federation. One might be considered mentally ill for trying to amass material wealth. The federation government may clamp down hard on those who engage in profit seeking.

Yep.

As much as you guys like to prattle on about the ethnocentrism of capitalism, the fact remains that resources are limited and have to be divided between people, that greed has always existed and will always exist. The question is not whether or not the Federation is capitalist -- it clearly isn't, and it's clear that even if greed remains a motivator, it's no longer the primary motivator in Federation society. The question is whether or not money exists in the Federation. The information we've gotten is blatantly contradictory; the only way to reconcile things is to presume that there's a system in place that we would today describe as a functional hybrid of Socialism and Capitalism, combining the best of both
Thats my exact point, we should not look at this as a zero sum game, and there is clearly enterprise in the UFP look at Siskos restraunt as an example.
In sociology we call some things "inconvienent facts" and the fact is capitalism as we know it is a burp in human history (as was, by the way, communism..an even smaller burp)

Our particular time period has made us falsly beleive that there are only two possable economic models, the uber-liberal capitalist model or the ridgid centrally planned command economy model, and since the latter was a disaster, and the current model is also a disaster but not as much, a lesser of two evils, we have our model for all time, the "end of history" as one guy put it.
Its closed our minds quite alot.

Now, TNG got a bit cockey with this, there was a certan smugness in some of those speaches some of the characters gave, and thats why I think DS9 rolled back some of that smugness.

Quark: "You know, Commander, I think I've figured out why humans don't like Ferengi. The way I see it, humans used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget. But you're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars - we have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better"

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."
(This was VERY accurate, the civilizing and socialization processes are in place and turn us into nice guys but were still, at a level, animals, and without the civilizing influences, we can return to that)

Sisko talking about the UFP attitude to the Maquis:
"Do you know what the probelm is? the problem is Earth!! On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in Paradise, but the Maquis do not live in Paradise. Out there in the demilitarized zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"

Mike Eddington:
"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their "rightful place" on the Federation Council. You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Bashir: "If push comes to shove, if something disastrous happens to the Federation... if we are frightened enough, or desperate enough... how would we react?...will we stay true to our ideals or end up here...(looks around the sanctuary district)...right back where we started"

But DS9 still kept the well deserved contempt for the 20th and 21st centuries like in Past Tense, I hate this idea that it's a zero sum game between the utopian TNG and the nasty DS9, the world is grey folks!
 
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