The Effectiveness of the Kobayashi Maru Test

[Search4]

(Which is nowhere near as clever as the version in Julia Ecklar's novel The Kobayashi Maru.)

For the record, i was watching the 2009 moving hoping they would use this technique. Brilliant, persuasive, and indicates that James T. would go a long way. Oh well, guess we had to blow up a few Klingons.

 

[Christopher]

I continue to wonder if the "solution" used by nu-Kirk, was the same as the the one used by original Kirk. We know that one Kirk received a commendation and the other one faced a hearing board.

I gather that originally in the movie script, the outcome of the hearing (delayed by the crisis of the film) was that Kirk should be given a commendation, and he received it during the ceremony at the end. At least, that was what happened in the first draft of the novelization. But movies get edited, and details like that can get left out.

Saavik had already earned lieutenant's rank when she took it, though she was in a cadet-red turtleneck (an odd anomaly)

Some cadets in modern military academies do have cadet ranks, Captains, Lieutenants, Sergeants, Corporals. At West Point, the senior most cadet rant is that of "First Captain." During the course of TWOK, Kirk and others might have been referring to Saavak by her cadet rank.

If the events of TWOK were to constituted her senior cruise, by the time of TSFS, Saavik could have been a commissioned Lieutenant Junior Grade.

That's an intriguing and plausible interpretation I haven't heard before. Except that in both films, Saavik's rank insignia was that of a full lieutenant.

Here's what I don't like about the test; if a captain really is in a no win scenario, it does not matter.

KIRK: A no-win situation is a possibility every commander may face. Has that never occurred to you?
SAAVIK: No sir. It has not.
KIRK: How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?

Imagine, for example, that you wake up in free fall at 25,000 ft in the air. No parachute. No one to help. This is a no win scenario. You don't need to prepare for it, because even if you did prepare for it, the outcome would be the same.

The problem with that analogy is that you're alone. A captain is in command of an entire crew. At the very least, by staying in control as the end nears, a captain can reassure one's crew and help them accept it.

Also, in some situations, you may not be able to escape death, but you can at least get some control over exactly when and how the end comes, and be able to make that sacrifice constructive rather than futile. For instance, at the climax of TWOK, Spock knew he was going to die anyway, so he figured he might as well choose to die in a way that would save everyone else. Similarly, a ship's crew might decide to sacrifice themselves in a constructive way that would help others, rather than just futilely struggling to survive and ending up wasting their efforts.

Not really. Consider, as a crude example, test pilots.

Those are the guys who take up aircraft and help make them safe for other people to fly. That involves clear recognition that any flight could be their last - might be a lot safer than it once was, but still.

Bailing out might be an option in extreme cases, giving up and just letting the aircraft plough in never was. Numerous instances of, even when things are hopeless, they keep trying - AND relaying their instrument readings so that, whatever else happens, that data might help someone else down the line.

In both cases, test pilots and starship captains (and a few other fields of human endeavour), you do not give up.

Right. It's about recognizing that sometimes your only choice is not between winning and losing, but between losing badly and losing well. Even when you have no way out, your choices can still make a difference if you stay in control.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Essentially, the test is nothing more than a test of leadership for an upperclassman. But, that's just my thought...

Oh, yes, it's definitely for cadets in their final year. Saavik had already earned lieutenant's rank when she took it, though she was in a cadet-red turtleneck (an odd anomaly) -- but she was in command white by TSFS, so she presumably graduated between films, shortly after TWOK. And Kirk was evidently in his final year when he took it in the 2009 movie.

My though on this is that Saavik has already graduated from the Academy some years before, was commissioned as an Ensign and rose to the rank of Lt. She was then sent back to the Academy to attend a special "Command School," part of which includes the KM test. She was wearing the red turtleneck to indicate her student status, but still wore her rank pins as normal. This is why she is on regular duty so quickly after graduation and at the same rank of Lt. (Had her rank been that of a "Cadet Lt" or "Midshipman Lt" than one would expect her to graduate and be commissioned as an Ensign for regular duty).

I don't think this necissarily works with what is seen in ST2009, but its how I interpreted the situation for years.

 

[Rojixus]

That sounds all cool and macho, but is it really such a good idea? Like I said, an important trait in a good leader is humility, the ability to recognize that one is capable of failure. It keeps you from getting too full of yourself.

The problem with the Kobayashi Maru test is that you would never really know ifyour actions or the computer's actions robbed you of victory. In real life, there is always a possibility of victory, no matter how slight. Even if the odds are literally a million to one, there is still a one in a million chance of victory. If the Kobayashi Maru test was really designed to be a no-win scenario, it wouldn't humble anyone. In fact, it may embolden some and make them even more brash and slightly resentful because, once again, they wouldn't know whether they themselves caused their defeat or if the computer simply cheated to rob them of victory.

 

[RoJoHen]

In real life, there is always a possibility of victory, no matter how slight. Even if the odds are literally a million to one, there is still a one in a million chance of victory.

I have to disagree with this. Sometimes it has nothing to do with odds. Sometimes you're just doomed.

 

[Rojixus]

In real life, there is always a possibility of victory, no matter how slight. Even if the odds are literally a million to one, there is still a one in a million chance of victory.

I have to disagree with this. Sometimes it has nothing to do with odds. Sometimes you're just doomed.

Again, there is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed failure or defeat. Also, odds and probability are the foundations of reality (as we know it at least), they always apply.

 

[Christopher]

I think the fact that the idea of the Kobayashi Maru simulation has spawned such active discussion and debate is itself a demonstration of the test's value. It makes you think about some pretty serious and important issues, and that's surely valuable in itself.

 

[tighr]

My though on this is that Saavik has already graduated from the Academy some years before, was commissioned as an Ensign and rose to the rank of Lt. She was then sent back to the Academy to attend a special "Command School," part of which includes the KM test. She was wearing the red turtleneck to indicate her student status, but still wore her rank pins as normal. This is why she is on regular duty so quickly after graduation and at the same rank of Lt. (Had her rank been that of a "Cadet Lt" or "Midshipman Lt" than one would expect her to graduate and be commissioned as an Ensign for regular duty).

My theory on this is that its a blatant error on the part of the writers/costumers due to their lack of understanding of basic rank structure of officers and cadets, and that any attempt to rationalize it is merely retroactive continuity. The evidence for this theory is rampant throughout Star Trek, most notably in the treatment of Chief O'Brien throughout his lengthy career.

That isn't to say I haven't participated in the discussion, because the fact that it exists necessitates some rationalization. But that doesn't mean I have to like it!

Suffice it to say, characters like Saavik and O'Brien are important because of the stories they tell, and regardless of the rank they should carry, they still serve a purpose.

 

[YARN]

The problem with that analogy is that you're alone. A captain is in command of an entire crew. At the very least, by staying in control as the end nears, a captain can reassure one's crew and help them accept it.

If you really wanted to help trainee crews psychologically embrace the death experience, then they should be the ones who should be given the simulation.

Functionally, it does not matter. If you're dead, you're dead. "What to do in case you're totally screwed and there is no chance of hope," would be a totally useless course, because, in such case, there is nothing you can do.

To the extent that it really is a no win scenario (even small victory), there is no adaptive lesson to learn.

I would want a captain like Kirk -- looking to cheat death to the very end rather than philosophically accept it.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

My though on this is that Saavik has already graduated from the Academy some years before, was commissioned as an Ensign and rose to the rank of Lt. She was then sent back to the Academy to attend a special "Command School," part of which includes the KM test. She was wearing the red turtleneck to indicate her student status, but still wore her rank pins as normal. This is why she is on regular duty so quickly after graduation and at the same rank of Lt. (Had her rank been that of a "Cadet Lt" or "Midshipman Lt" than one would expect her to graduate and be commissioned as an Ensign for regular duty).

My theory on this is that its a blatant error on the part of the writers/costumers due to their lack of understanding of basic rank structure of officers and cadets, and that any attempt to rationalize it is merely retroactive continuity. The evidence for this theory is rampant throughout Star Trek, most notably in the treatment of Chief O'Brien throughout his lengthy career.

Oh, absolutely, the real-world reason for it is likely an error on the part of the creators of TWOK. But rationalizing and ret-conning is what Trek fans do best

 

[Kooz]

I think it was originally invented to demonstrate how awesome and a bit of a rebel Kirk was. I think it was reintroduced to demonstrate how awesome and a bit of a rebel Kirk is.

This is obviously the right answer--the Kobayashi Maru Test is effective in showing what a badass Kirk was/is.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

(Which is nowhere near as clever as the version in Julia Ecklar's novel The Kobayashi Maru.)

For the record, i was watching the 2009 moving hoping they would use this technique. Brilliant, persuasive, and indicates that James T. would go a long way. Oh well, guess we had to blow up a few Klingons.

What technique was it?

 

[Vanyel]

Jim Kirk may never have been a Boyscout, but I think he would have tampered with the program in a far less obvious manner than Nu-Kirk.

 

[sevenstars]

KIRK: How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?

...Kirk's statement there is fairly vague. I'd be interested in ideas on how else it could be interpreted. Anyone?

Like a lot of Star Trek wisdom, there is no there there.

I choose to go with some of the previous posters: that the issue is not just facing your own death, but facing the real possibility of anyone's death, including your own. I'm not sure how that's different from "facing life"-- seems like a package deal.

As for the no-win situation, I think it 's preposterous. It's the wrong kind of language: what's at stake is the best outcome, weighed against the cost. It may not always be achieved, or even correctly perceived, but that doesn't mean it's not worth fighting for, with all available means.

 

[7thsealord]

Jim Kirk may never have been a Boyscout, but I think he would have tampered with the program in a far less obvious manner than Nu-Kirk.

Well, we didn't actually see what he was like back then. He claimed (in 'Shore Leave', I think) that he was "positively grim" in those days - but that was a very long time ago.

 

[Christopher]

(Which is nowhere near as clever as the version in Julia Ecklar's novel The Kobayashi Maru.)

For the record, i was watching the 2009 moving hoping they would use this technique. Brilliant, persuasive, and indicates that James T. would go a long way. Oh well, guess we had to blow up a few Klingons.

What technique was it?

Spoiler: The Kobayashi Maru (Ecklar novel)

Cadet Kirk reprogrammed the simulation so that when he hailed the Klingons and announced that they faced Captain James T. Kirk, they reacted with awe and fear and immediately stood down. "The Captain Kirk?"

This version of Kirk's Kobayashi Maru test was also depicted (with slightly modified dialogue) in issue 73 of Volume 2 of DC's Star Trek comic book, "Star-crossed Part 1," written by Howard Weinstein.

There's another prose version of Kirk's Kobayashi Maru, "A Test of Character" by Kevin Lauderdale in the 2004 anthology Star Trek: Strange New Worlds VII. In that version,

Spoiler: "A Test of Character"

Kirk simply reprograms the simulation to be realistic, taking out the programming that stacks the deck against the cadets and guarantees their defeat. So while in the other two versions he stacked the deck in his favor and guaranteed an easy win, in this version he simply made it a fair fight. Which I think is the best interpretation I've seen.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^Thanks Chris