Spoilers The Eaters of Light (Grade & Discussion Thread)

[Allyn Gibson]

Nardole I can do without. He's like an annoying alarm clock...."Gotta guard the vault. Gotta guard the vault" - bang, Doctor hits snooze button until next week.

My question, is it possible that Missy is the Master before Yana? Does anything solidly contradict that possibility?

I've entertained a crazier idea -- that Missy and the Simm-Master aren't really connected. One could be a continuation of the Delgado-Ainley-Rathbone-Tipple-Roberts line, while the other is the continuation of the Time War-resurrected line that includes Professor Yana. It's a strange enough idea that I could see Moffat doing it just to mess with fans.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It seems it's a minority opinion in these parts but I really love the season so far. Nearly everything clicks for me which is delightful because I struggled with the Moffat era time and again and found the last season a bit disappointing. I had hoped for Moffat to go out on a high note and it looks that's what he's going to do.

I've largely enjoyed this season with the exception of "The Pyramid at the End of the World" and "The Lie of the Land" (and somewhat disappointed by "Knock Knock"), but then I'm also in the minority regarding "Extremis."

I've entertained a crazier idea -- that Missy and the Simm-Master aren't really connected. One could be a continuation of the Delgado-Ainley-Rathbone-Tipple-Roberts line, while the other is the continuation of the Time War-resurrected line that includes Professor Yana. It's a strange enough idea that I could see Moffat doing it just to mess with fans.

Except The Master as Yana heard Delgado and Ainley when he opened the fob watch.

 

[Lonemagpie]

I've largely enjoyed this season with the exception of "The Pyramid at the End of the World" and "The Lie of the Land" (and somewhat disappointed by "Knock Knock"), but then I'm also in the minority regarding "


Except The Master as Yana heard Delgado and Ainley when he opened the fob watch.

If by "resurrected" he's a clone, then there's no reason why both he and the original wouldn't hear that, since the resurrected one would be given the same memories. I think that's what Allyn's getting at.

 

[danellis]

Okay, must say first: the Ninth probably didn't perish in Scotland, as often thought. That idea was built up by Rosemary Sutcliffe in her novel which I loved as a kid, and probably got me interested in Roman history. So for the Doctor to just arrive and say, "Och, ah ken what happened" was a little jarring.

I read and enjoyed Sutcliffe's book as a child, but this was the first I'd come across the idea that there might be real any real history behind it (i.e. that the IXth really did go missing).

A quick google lead to this story from this weekend's Radio Times which looks briefly into what real history there is in the context of the book and last night's episode:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017...behind-doctor-whos-missing-ninth-roman-legion


dJE

 

[danellis]

Okay, must say first: the Ninth probably didn't perish in Scotland, as often thought. That idea was built up by Rosemary Sutcliffe in her novel which I loved as a kid, and probably got me interested in Roman history. So for the Doctor to just arrive and say, "Och, ah ken what happened" was a little jarring.

I read and enjoyed Sutcliffe's book as a child, but this was the first I'd come across the idea that there might be real any real history behind it (i.e. that the IXth really did go missing).

A quick google lead to this story from this weekend's Radio Times which looks briefly into what real history there is in the context of the book and last night's episode:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017...behind-doctor-whos-missing-ninth-roman-legion


dJE

 

[UncleRogi]

Well, the fault does lie in the writer in that they were such a crappy writer I ignored there shitty teen characters to the point where I couldn't be bothered to remember the name of their group. If they weren't some of the most aggressively annoying characters this season, maybe they would have been worth paying attention to. Instead, to me their just annoying Scottish villagers in one of the most bland, average Doctor Who episodes in awhile. I'll only remember them because them being terribly written YA film style characters is one of the few things memorable (in a bad way) about this episode. So, yeah, definitely the writers fault.



Really? Everyone? They're not exactly Romans or vikings. Even in the UK I would bet thousands of people (if not more) have never heard of them, much less in the US. This comment was ridiculous enough that I did glance at their wikipedia page, and even it calls them very similar to most of the other cultures of the area at the time they existed, and they just kind of faded away. So, I'm calling BS on even most people in the UK knowing about the Picts, much less expecting them to be common knowledge to people in my country (and no, you can't prove they're common knowledge just because some people on a Star Trek forum know about them).

The Picts are roughly analogous to Native Americans. The folk there when the conquerors came.
How much of those cultures are actually covered in our American schools? But we all know about them.
I would think the same for the Picts and British history. Hadrian's Wall and its ultimate failure and all that. I think the Wall is considered one of Romes' largest building projects.

I'm really enjoying the Missy stuff, knowing it's leading up to Simms somehow.

 

[Starkers]

Well I really enjoyed that. As others have said plot wise it wasn't very complex but that almost didn't matter. A simple story well told is better than a convoluted tale told badly any day. I liked the Romans, liked the Picts, liked that the portal vortex thingy did look a little like the classic era title vortex. Thought Capaldi, Mackie and Lucas were great. (Nardole especially was wonderful) The Missy stuff did seem a little tacked on but that's probably the only think that seemed off. I think S10 is going to wind up my favourite Capaldi season. Just a shame it's the last

 

[The Nth Doctor]

If by "resurrected" he's a clone, then there's no reason why both he and the original wouldn't hear that, since the resurrected one would be given the same memories. I think that's what Allyn's getting at.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. Still don't like it.

(Weird how the end of the first part of my post just disappeared...fixed now)

I think S10 is going to wind up my favourite Capaldi season. Just a shame it's the last

Yeah, same here...although that's not saying much considering how dire his first season is.

 

[cultcross]

So, I'm calling BS on even most people in the UK knowing about the Picts, much less expecting them to be common knowledge to people in my country (and no, you can't prove they're common knowledge just because some people on a Star Trek forum know about them).

The Picts are a standard part of the primary history syllabus so I'd be surprised if there are many who have never heard of them. It's fairly standard to at least know the names of the people who have inhabited your land in the past. Terms like Celts, Picts, Scots, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans will be familiar to any British schoolchild who is half awake.


A good episode this week, refreshing after the last three weeks of dross. It wasn't perfect, the monster was vaguely defined and its power seemed to be largely a setup for the Death by Scotland joke (which in fairness I did laugh at), and it wasn't a patch on previous historical episodes. But it was fun enough and Bill continues to be the jewel in a very uneven season. I loved the bit where they realise that, able to understand each other, they all seem suddenly quite similar. That was quite a TNG moment.

Oh, and I doubt all those young boys were centurions. He could barely command 8 men, let alone 80.

 

[Photoman15]

Remember that Missy told the Doctor where Gallifrey was and that wouldn't have been a big deal before the Time War at all.

And the Doctor went there and Gallifrey wasn't there. It may have been where it WAS when the Master/Missy was last around. S/he is has probably been avoiding Gallifrey since leaving last.

 

[kirk55555]

The Picts are a standard part of the primary history syllabus so I'd be surprised if there are many who have never heard of them. It's fairly standard to at least know the names of the people who have inhabited your land in the past. Terms like Celts, Picts, Scots, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans will be familiar to any British schoolchild who is half awake.

Well, I'll take peoples word for it, although I've seen enough examples of people forgetting/ignoring extremely simple history facts that I wouldn't be surprised if many people even over there didn't know them regardless of how in depth they are covered in school.

But, ok. The Picts in the episode were poorly written rejects from a crap scottish Young adult movie, but maybe to the residents of one island in the world their name might be somewhat familiar enough to be common knowledge. To me, though, they'll always be the irritating Scottish Young Adults who I wish had been mauled to death by the generic monster of the episode. There is an almost uncountable number of better ideas for ancient people to use on Doctor Who, but the episode was so mediocre that it wouldn't have been helped that much by having actually interesting people replacing the annoying scottish face painters, although parts of the episode would have been much less annoying.

Hopefully we'll never get them, or this writer, on Doctor Who ever again.

 

[MacLeod]

Well, I'll take peoples word for it, although I've seen enough examples of people forgetting/ignoring extremely simple history facts that I wouldn't be surprised if many people even over there didn't know them regardless of how in depth they are covered in school.

But, ok. The Picts in the episode were poorly written rejects from a crap scottish Young adult movie, but maybe to the residents of one island in the world their name might be somewhat familiar enough to be common knowledge. To me, though, they'll always be the irritating Scottish Young Adults who I wish had been mauled to death by the generic monster of the episode. There is an almost uncountable number of better ideas for ancient people to use on Doctor Who, but the episode was so mediocre that it wouldn't have been helped that much by having actually interesting people replacing the annoying scottish face painters, although parts of the episode would have been much less annoying.

Hopefully we'll never get them, or this writer, on Doctor Who ever again.

Sure there might be many ancient people out there that could be used in a story, but as a British TV show doesn' it make sense that they might use a people that the average Brit might have heard of? Just as a TV show in any country might use an ancient people familiar to its citizens.

 

[Snaploud]

Count me as another person who never learned about the Picts. Of course, I'm a product of the American educational system. I'm lucky my history classes even mentioned that you foreigners exist.

 

[MacLeod]

Though as we are talking history, I'm somewhat curious so have to ask

What is covered in history classes in say the the USA, at Primary School and/or Secondary School level?

 

[Snaploud]

Though as we are talking history, I'm somewhat curious so have to ask

What is covered in history classes in say the the USA, at Primary School and/or Secondary School level?

They were big on American history. World History mostly covered WWI and WWII but from an American-centric perspective, so they left out little details like the Soviet Union largely being responsible for winning the latter war.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Oh, and I doubt all those young boys were centurions. He could barely command 8 men, let alone 80.

Yeah, the roman soldiers were not believable to me. They looked like they were cosplaying at a renaissance fair.

 

[Snaploud]

Advanced secondary students might have the opportunity to take a college-level European History class (instead of basic World History, which was, as I noted above, largely about the world wars from an American-centric perspective), but we're talking about a small slice of U.S. students with that opportunity. There were also some secondary school electives (at the better funded schools) involving topics like the History of China, but you had to choose those electives over other options.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Well, I'll take peoples word for it, although I've seen enough examples of people forgetting/ignoring extremely simple history facts that I wouldn't be surprised if many people even over there didn't know them regardless of how in depth they are covered in school.

But, ok. The Picts in the episode were poorly written rejects from a crap scottish Young adult movie, but maybe to the residents of one island in the world their name might be somewhat familiar enough to be common knowledge. To me, though, they'll always be the irritating Scottish Young Adults who I wish had been mauled to death by the generic monster of the episode. There is an almost uncountable number of better ideas for ancient people to use on Doctor Who, but the episode was so mediocre that it wouldn't have been helped that much by having actually interesting people replacing the annoying scottish face painters, although parts of the episode would have been much less annoying.

Hopefully we'll never get them, or this writer, on Doctor Who ever again.

I'm sorry, I need to jump in here.

What I find bloody ironic about your posts on the Picts, kirk55555, is that Doctor Who was originally conceived as an educational program, yet when the program tries to educate you about something you didn't know about -- the indigenous peoples of Britain -- you use your own ignorance as an opportunity to dump all over the show. I could characterize your posts as, "I know nothing about the Picts, I think the very idea of Picts is stupid, and because I know nothing about the Picts and I think they're stupid the Picts are an illegitimate topic for Doctor Who to use and explore." I don't know about you, but I find that kind of attitude close-minded in the extreme. It makes me wonder if you've missed the point of Doctor Who entirely.

Though as we are talking history, I'm somewhat curious so have to ask

What is covered in history classes in say the the USA, at Primary School and/or Secondary School level?

I don't think the Picts would ever be covered in American schools. I remember the vague, nebulous "social studies" classes, a term that encompassed basic poly-sci and world cultures. I remember a basic "state history" class in fourth grade; growing up in Virginia, I learned about Jamestown, but not the unsavory parts of it. Seventh grade I think there was a one-semester world history class, and what I remember from that was a unit on World War I. American history and a survey of world history happens in high school.

I don't even remember covering the Picts in college, and I was a history major. Yet I knew about them because I was always interested in the Arthurian legends, and the Picts are hard to miss if you're at all curious about the historical background of those legends.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't even remember covering the Picts in college, and I was a history major. Yet I knew about them because I was always interested in the Arthurian legends, and the Picts are hard to miss if you're at all curious about the historical background of those legends.

I was never a history major, but I did love history ( maybe I should have majored in it) plus I'm always curious. So when a movie or TV show mentioned something I didn't know about, I'd hit the encyclopedia or other reference book. It was a bit of a family joke that I would read the encyclopedia for fun. Like yourself Arthurian legends led me into British history.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I can't remember where I first heard about Picts (although it was almost certainly not in a classroom) but the point they became solidified in my mind was in Antoine Fuqua's King Arthur, although they were referred to as Woads in the film. Perhaps as a result of my own insatiable curiosity (in this particular case, history), I did research after seeing the film (and not just the first time I watched it) and learned more about Picts on my own.

I'm sorry, I need to jump in here.

What I find bloody ironic about your posts on the Picts, kirk55555, is that Doctor Who was originally conceived as an educational program, yet when the program tries to educate you about something you didn't know about -- the indigenous peoples of Britain -- you use your own ignorance as an opportunity to dump all over the show. I could characterize your posts as, "I know nothing about the Picts, I think the very idea of Picts is stupid, and because I know nothing about the Picts and I think they're stupid the Picts are an illegitimate topic for Doctor Who to use and explore." I don't know about you, but I find that kind of attitude close-minded in the extreme. It makes me wonder if you've missed the point of Doctor Who entirely.

Indeed. Precisely all of this. Well said.