The earliest defining moment of DS9

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by JirinPanthosa, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 20, 2012
    I recently started another run-through of DS9 from the start, and I noted what I think is the first time DS9 really becomes DS9.

    In Battle Lines, the conversation between Kira and Opaca when she doesn't want Opaca to think she's a violent person, and she tells her that she can't move forward until she accepts the violence that is part of her.

    I think that episode set the tone for the entire development of her character and the entire presentation of Bajor. Before that the series had the premise set up but didn't do much that couldn't have happened in other Trek series. We knew what Bajor had been through before then, but it wasn't established as the anti-Federation ally of the Federation, and the later episodes in season one solidified that theme.

    When was the first moment of DS9 that you think really established the feel of the series, separate from other Treks?
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Jan 20, 2007
    inside teacake
    SISKO: What is the point of bringing me back again to this?
    JAKE: We do not bring you here.
    JENNIFER: You bring us here.
    TACTICAL: You exist here.
    SISKO: Then give me the power to lead you somewhere else. Anywhere else.
    OPAKA: We cannot give you what you deny yourself. Look for solutions from within, Commander.
    SISKO: I was ready to die with her.
    TACTICAL: Die? What is this?
    JENNIFER: The termination of their linear existence.
    (and she puts her hand on his cheek)
    TACTICAL: We've got to go now, sir.
    SISKO 2: Damn it, we just can't leave her here. Oh, no!
    SISKO: I never left this ship.
    JENNIFER: You exist here.
    SISKO: I exist here. I don't know if you can understand. I see her like this every time I close my eyes. In the darkness, in the blink of an eye, I see her like this.
    JENNIFER: None of your past experiences helped prepare you for this consequence.
    SISKO: And I have never figured out how to live without her.
    JENNIFER: So you choose to exist here. It is not linear.
    SISKO: No. It's not linear.

    This to me is the first defining moment of DS9

    Every character in the show struggles with where they choose to exist emotionally and psychologically and how this prevents him from moving forward in life. Some come to this understanding (Bashir, Rom.. just to name two) and walk out of how they defined themselves or allowed others to define them into a new way to exist that is more of a choice rather than a reaction. Some are unable to do this and instead their being stuck psychologically becomes a cancer that consumes them (Kai Winn).

    Bajor itself struggles with whether it defines itself as by the Occupation or whether they will embrace their future in the Federation and take on a newer and forward looking identity. They have to learn like Sisko that you don't lose the part of yourself that brought you so much pain when you walk into your future, you take it with you but it no longer defines you to your detriment.
  3. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 17, 2007
    "On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"
  4. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 21, 2011
    The Black Country, England
    Progress. It was a clear sign that there was 'more' to DS9 than the rather dull first season initisally promised. Much more...
  5. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

    Jul 25, 2012
    Va. Beach, VA
    I think that conversation begins and ends with the discovery of the wormhole and the Prophets in the opening episode. It puts DS9 on the map, would ultimately be the doorway to one of their biggest enemies, and serves as a spiritual catalyst for the showcased species of the show. (Bajorans)
  6. blueziggy

    blueziggy Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Apr 27, 2007
    "a federation ship, with a cloaking device?"

    thats when the show changed for me. but not just the show. the galaxy and the federation itself changed.

    sure the galaxy was pretty rough to begin with. lots of species with bad attitudes. the federation though always faced them with ships more designed for exploration and science. bringing in the defiant showed just how worried the federation was about the dominion and how its thinking changed.
  7. Dick_Valentine

    Dick_Valentine Commander Red Shirt

    Aug 6, 2011
    Birmingham, UK (Not Alabama)
    I think it was having the Federation command character become the emissary to the Bajorans, after years of "do not interfere" being rammed down our throats you suddenly had the added complication of an alien race worshiping our lead.

    That, and when Sisko met Picard, you expected it to be a buddy-buddy "good luck out here in the Frontier" speech full of camaraderie from two experienced officers wishing each other well as we'd seen a few times before. (In the same way they got McCoy in to give his "blessing" to the new ship and in that way pass the torch from TOS to TNG )

    The fact that Sisko was downright rude to Picard made you do a mental double take about the series that was in front of you.
    Yes, they made up by the end of the episode but that scene was a powerful indicator that "This isn't TNG"
  8. snakespeare

    snakespeare Commander Red Shirt

    Dec 8, 2009
    Northwestern USA
    I do like the early seasons, but the day Worf showed up was what really made it work for me. :klingon:
  9. Surak of Vulcan

    Surak of Vulcan Ensign Red Shirt

    The Jem'Hadar and The Search, Parts I and II, definitely marked that Deep Space Nine was going to be something different and those episodes would define Deep Space Nine for the next three-four years.
  10. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Apr 11, 2003
    West Coast of Canada
    I was only vaguely paying attention to Trek at the time it first aired, but the Occupation Arc stuck out for me as something that made DS9 distinct from what came before, if anything because it pulled off a three-episode arc, lending the series to serialization. Trek just don't do d'at!
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 15, 2012
    They did the first three part episode arc back in season 2. The Homecoming, Circle and Siege. While it was quite average, it did show DS9 was willing to go long term with continuity and story telling instead of the TOS/TNG style of random encounter of the week.
  12. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Apr 11, 2003
    West Coast of Canada
    Fack me, I totally meant the Circle Trilogy. Why I typed Occupation Arc, I've no idea. :alienblush:
  13. bbailey861

    bbailey861 Admiral Premium Member

    Oct 14, 2009
    Kingston, ON Canada
    Eloquently said - and I wholeheartedly agree.
  14. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 1, 2011
    The great gig in the sky
    For me it hast to be Duet, before this all the previous episodes strayed into well-trodden TNG territory or were too timid and didn't make bold leaps forwards.

    Duet changed all that, for starters it focuses solely on two alien characters who drove this episode forwards, and TNG has NEVER done that before. Secondly there is a level of psychological and emotional insight that TNG only occasionally achieved. TNG sided with the humans one way or another, but in Duet you begin to understand just a fraction of what the Bajorans went through, you sympathise with someone other than the humans which makes a nice change. Kira's passionate account about the liberation of the Gallitep labour camp is so powerful because she descends into near hysterics.

    There are some seriously raw emotions, and the 'villain' of this episode, the disguised Marritza, you almost want to hear more of his brutal and frank opinions because the episode isn't biased towards him or Kira. It's a clash of opinions, of facts and of accounts, and it's allowed to happen and it's allowed to run its course. Finally cumulating in what I see is a major breakthrough for Kira's character; she finally differentiates between those Cardassians who committed all those terrible things against her people, and the ones who did not.

    It's classic Roddenbury stuff, except it's between two alien species and the episode is totally unrepentant and in the greater scheme of things the schism between the Bajorans and the Cardassians still remains, but this episode tells us that maybe there will be reconciliation but it will take a hell of a long time before this happens (i.e. the Bajoran who murdered Marritza).

    For me Duet was when DS9 truly showed its potential; it started to really focus on the people, and move away from this planet-of-the-week, travelling-through-the-stars format which TOS and TNG were so heavily bound to.
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 15, 2012
    This. Well said, sir.
  16. USS Kongo

    USS Kongo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 25, 2006
    ^ Yeah, I wholly agree. Duet was the first inkling I had that Deep Space Nine was going to be something special. That episode was simply extraordinary.

  17. Michael

    Michael Le modérateur de fanart Moderator

    Jul 10, 2007
    Aloha Quadrant
    As do I. Without a doubt my favourite scene from a brilliant pilot. For me, the magic was there right from the start. It's the characters, it's the tone, it's the setting – everything in the pilot made clear that this wasn't the Trek we were used to. I will forever love this series, even the first two seasons often dismissed by some fans.
  18. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Oct 28, 2011
    While there were good episodes earlier and good (heck, great) moments earlier, the defining moment had to be the destruction of the Odyssey.
  19. 47

    47 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 23, 2001
    Bumpy's Former Lair
    1. The musical theme was completely different from TOS and TNG. If you remember, the theme of TNG was reminiscent of TOS.

    2. It was on a space station. Not on the Enterprise, not on a starship. There would be no exploration in there. At least it would not be a show focusing on exploration or explorers.

    So by the end of the credits of Emissary, it was already pretty obvious that this was not the usual Trek.
  20. JediKnightButler

    JediKnightButler Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Feb 9, 2000
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    I enjoyed the series but didn't get really excited about it until they brought in the Defiant and the Dominion at the beginning of S3. I was always quite fond of the Defiant and thought that it was the coolest of the Trek ships and it gave our characters the opportunity to have more adventures off the station in a real vessel and not just a runabout which IMHO always seemed kind of rinky-dinky to me.

    BTW just thought of another interesting "parallel" to B5 (another one of my favorite series): Captain Sheridan gets a new ship too- the White Star.