The Dominion War without the Romulans... guaranteed loss?

[Temis the Vorta]

The way the war actually did end suggests that it was really S31 who won the war with their attempted genocide, which weakened the female Founder enough that she would surrender. But Starfleet having no idea what S31 was up to, they had to go on what they knew, and without S31's actions, the Federation would have lost, if the Rommies hadn't joined their side. Ironically, that means that Sisko and Garak's war crime in ITPM was made unnecessary by S31's war crime.

 

[Myasishchev]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

 

[Damask]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

Interesting. We did see the Female Founder become more angry as time went on because she couldn't do anything to help here people. Without Odo and the cure, the Founder could have launched one last attack on Earth with every Dominion ship she had access to.

 

[Praetor]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

But was it really a deterrent, or did Section 31 simply want to kill the Dominion's leadership, and counted on the allies (including the Romulans) hanging in there long enough for the virus to run its course?

Was the real reason Sloan tried to recruit Bashir to keep him from trying to find a cure to the virus when it eventually manifested in Odo?

 

[noknowes]

I voted no, the Romulan's entry into the war was really the moment the Dominion seemed to have lost the war if it continued in the fashion we saw (no help from the GQ and the allies sticking together).

The loss of the wormhole didn't help but I think at most that evened the ledger a bit more so that the Feds and Klingons weren't so far behind. It gave the Federation and Klingons hope they could win or at least that they wouldn't lose in a few weeks. At that point the war is still up for grabs and I think the Dominion is still ahead with the better chance of coming out on top.

I think it is rather telling that with the entry of the Romulans and discounting the brief respite the Breen's magic weapon gave the Dominion that we did not hear of a telling Dominion victory post-conquering of Betazed.

Post Romulans joining Fed Alliance gains:
- 15 Dominion/Cardassian bases immediately struck
- Romulans liberate Benzar
- Dominion fleet seriously stretched thanks to the third, "Romulan front". The Romulan claim that the Dominion was sending fleets against the allies and they were destroying them
- Chin'toka system is conquered and held for nearly a year
- the Kalandra system and maybe all of the Kalandra sector is reclaimed by the alliance.
- Septimus III is captured, an entire Cardassian order is destroyed in the campaign. This sounds a lot like the alliance hoping to open another front to push into Cardassian territory, like they hoped Chin'toka would be but never did.

As for the Dominion, the best we heard was that they destroyed the USS Cortez and that after an engagement they left the Seventh Fleet at half strength for a subsequent operation, which the Dominion might have won but we never hear anything more about it or that Vulcan is again under threat of invasion.

So the Romulans inclusion won the war for the allies based on the fact that Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant was isolated from meaningful reinforcements from the GQ.

i like the deridrek design but...

Hard to believe the lumbering deridrek could outgun the dominion ships.In a few scenes we saw deridrek being hit with just 1 shot and bursting into flames at the top of the beak head.

It has low maneouverability.in die is cast it was again outgunned/maeuvered.

 

[flemm]

But was it really a deterrent, or did Section 31 simply want to kill the Dominion's leadership, and counted on the allies (including the Romulans) hanging in there long enough for the virus to run its course?

This is how I see it. Dangling a cure is not an effective deterrant. It only works once, for one thing, and then the Founders would be even more hellbent on conquering the Federation.

The purpose of the virus was to destroy the Founders, plain and simple.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Witout the romulans the federation alliance would have lost the war - if one considers only conventional strategies.
On more than one occasion, the Federation proved able to use unconventional technologies and strategies that proved effective.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The way the war actually did end suggests that it was really S31 who won the war with their attempted genocide, which weakened the female Founder enough that she would surrender. But Starfleet having no idea what S31 was up to, they had to go on what they knew, and without S31's actions, the Federation would have lost, if the Rommies hadn't joined their side. Ironically, that means that Sisko and Garak's war crime in ITPM was made unnecessary by S31's war crime.

Um by the time they had could dangle the cure in front of the Founders the allies were in orbit of Cardassia and were probably going to win the war anyway.

 

[nx1701g]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

But was it really a deterrent, or did Section 31 simply want to kill the Dominion's leadership, and counted on the allies (including the Romulans) hanging in there long enough for the virus to run its course?

Was the real reason Sloan tried to recruit Bashir to keep him from trying to find a cure to the virus when it eventually manifested in Odo?

You know that makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Captain Fine]

TBut Starfleet having no idea what S31 was up to, they had to go on what they knew, and without S31's actions, the Federation would have lost, if the Rommies hadn't joined their side.

I don't think that's right. I watched late S7 recently and Sisko said something about the Federation council knowing about the disease, and refusing to give the Founders the cure due to the war.

If the Federation council knew, then it's safe to say Starfleet knew as well.

 

[Praetor]

I think that Starfleet only knew because Bashir found out, though.

 

[Myasishchev]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

But was it really a deterrent, or did Section 31 simply want to kill the Dominion's leadership, and counted on the allies (including the Romulans) hanging in there long enough for the virus to run its course?

Was the real reason Sloan tried to recruit Bashir to keep him from trying to find a cure to the virus when it eventually manifested in Odo?

That seems reasonable, but would that actually damage the Dominion? It seems like it would just kill the Founders and leave the Vorta administration completely untouched, probably to carry out the Founders' last orders: "Kill every Solid in the Alpha Quadrant!"

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It is strange why S31 never announced, "Hey, Founders, we've got the cure. Now bug off back to the Gamma Quadrant and maybe we'll give it to you."

It's like in Dr. Strangelove, the doomsday device isn't a deterrent if no one knows you have it!

But was it really a deterrent, or did Section 31 simply want to kill the Dominion's leadership, and counted on the allies (including the Romulans) hanging in there long enough for the virus to run its course?

Was the real reason Sloan tried to recruit Bashir to keep him from trying to find a cure to the virus when it eventually manifested in Odo?

That seems reasonable, but would that actually damage the Dominion? It seems like it would just kill the Founders and leave the Vorta administration completely untouched, probably to carry out the Founders' last orders: "Kill every Solid in the Alpha Quadrant!"

Exactly. The Founders are the leaders, but as we've seen they actually exist in isolation most of the time. The Vorta run things, and most Vorta and Jem'Hadar never meet Founders. If the Founders all died, I imagine the Vorta and Jem'Hadar would avenge their gods and fight with renewed vigour in an attempt to destroy those responsible.

 

[apenpaap]

I think the Vorta wouldn't tell anyone that there were no more Founders and just play gods themselves, telling the Jem'Hadar that their orders still came from the Founders.

 

[nx1701g]

^ I agree with that. I really believe had the Founders not been cured Weyoun would have just continued the war and made himself proxy leader of the Dominion.

 

[Myasishchev]

And if that's the case, it means that the plague weapon had no real strategic value, other than at best dealing with Changeling infiltration, which had apparently already been brought under control by then.

 

[Fish1941]

So, is thread supposed to be an attempt at justifying Sisko and Garak's manipulation the Romulans into joining the war? If so, I find it a bit repulsive.

 

[Thor Damar]

So, is thread supposed to be an attempt at justifying Sisko and Garak's manipulation the Romulans into joining the war? If so, I find it a bit repulsive.

Why? It's just the ignoble art of realpolitik. Forcing the dominion into opening a second front with the RSE makes perfect strategic sense to me.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

So, is thread supposed to be an attempt at justifying Sisko and Garak's manipulation the Romulans into joining the war? If so, I find it a bit repulsive.

I don't think this thread is attempting to discuss morality, only wartime strategy.

 

[Jono]

And if that's the case, it means that the plague weapon had no real strategic value, other than at best dealing with Changeling infiltration, which had apparently already been brought under control by then.

At the time the weapon was initially deployed that was the greatest threat to the Federation. Odo was infected nearly two years before the war started at a point where changeling inflitration was a huge issue. They had a Changeling pose as a Tal Shiar colonel who helped bring down the Obsidian Order and seriously weaken the Tal Shiar. Another posed as a Federation ambassador and nearly sent the Feds and teh Tzenkethi to war. Next they had just the suggestion of infiltration was enough to spur the Klingons into war with the Cardassians and end the alliance between them and the Federation. So the threat was very real at that point and Section 31 decided to do something about it.

I'm thinking they were the ones behind the bombing of the conference at Antwerp. Leyton showed that he could make changeling matter appear with his fake blood test on Sisko. Section 31 uses that technique and blows up the conference knowing that Odo would be called in. He comes in, they infect him. Given this it is hard not to see Leyton as part of this conspiracy at some level given that he was putting together his coup before the conference was bombed, though he might not know that he was working with S31 or about the plan to infect Odo. Anyway, needless to say Odo is infected.

Also at this stage the Federation knows little about the Dominion. For example they don't learn about Vorta been clones or that Jem'Hadar would commit suicide and a Vorta would become incompetant enough to let the enemy get away with a captured Dominion warship after a Founder dies, until after Odo is infected. All they do really know is that the Jem'Hadar have some misgivings about serving the Vorta and aren't beyond rebelling and killing their Vorta overseer.

So their grand plan might have been to hope that the war wouldn't start before the Founders started getting seriously sick. Once that happened that the Founders would then be too concerned about their health to bother with the Alpha Quadrant. Founders die and then either Vorta start fighting for power and tear the Dominion down or that they could then make enough Jem'Hadar aware that their gods are dead that they would go Teal'c on the Vorta and become the catalyst to the downfall of the Dominion. Also at this point closing the wormhole is still considered a viable option, which would probably fall under back up plan.