The Doctor Falls.... (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Timofnine, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. Romulan_spy

    Romulan_spy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That review seriously deflated my excitement for the finale. My biggest reason for watching the finale will be to learn more about how the Doctor dies and and what his last words will be because I sure hope the pre-credit scene from "World Enough ..." is not indicative of his final moment. I sure hope Capaldi's final words are not "no!".
     
  2. Mad Jack Wolfe

    Mad Jack Wolfe Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    All they say is her ultimate fate is "everything you'd expect from Moffat." Which I guess is the same as saying she survives.
     
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  4. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Given the low story content of part 1 plus Moffat's history with conclusions, I'm not surprised sadly. Of course, I'll give it a shot. And, going in with low expectations will probably help!

    And, I did take the part about "everything you'd expect from Moffat" to mean the Bill survives.
     
  5. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why can't Moffat just not, for once, let "everybody live"? Its just as bad as when Peri ended up living the rest of her life with King Yakarnos.
     
  6. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe this is too obvious, but an "out" for Bill would be Heather from "The Pilot." Either Heather comes and "merges" with Cyber-Bill, allowing Bill to shapeshift into a human form or Heather brings another water puddle for Bill to merge with with the same result, then they travel the universe together. That's the sort of deus ex cheat I'd expect from Moffat, on par with the Tessalecta, and it gives him something he can sell as a "happy ending."
     
  7. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My problem isn't with the "everyone lives" trope per se, although that is very annoying on its own. My problem is that he undoes character deaths and then never revisits the characters afterwards anyway. Name of the Doctor had the Paternoster Gang killed, and revived, but then they come back for Deep Breath after that and are never seen again. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion resurrects Osgood after she was killed in Death in Heaven, but she hasn't been brought back since. Clara was killed in Face the Raven, is kind of resurrected in Hell Bent, hasn't been seen since. The Brigadier has even been resurrected, even though he was killed off because of Nicholas Courtney's actual death making it hard for him to make anymore appearances, which he hasn't since his resurrection anyway. Moffat's even been doing this to other people's scripts, even before he was showrunner, as it was because of him saying he didn't like Jenny being killed that RTD had The Doctor's Daughter re-written so that she survives, but in nearly a decade since that episode aired she hasn't been brought back.*

    Moffat really has an odd thing against killing characters, indeed even after seven years running the show plus four years contributing scripts under RTD the total number of characters in a Moffat script who have died as a result of something other than old age or historical fact and have stayed dead is less than ten. But whatever, that's beside the point. I do have to wonder what is the point in resurrecting a dead character who you don't plan on using again anyway? Is there a reason they couldn't stay dead?

    *I debated including Jenny, since I suspect Georgia Moffett's personal life has likely contributed to her not reprising the role, but I figured it helped sell the point anyway, so I included it anyway.
     
  8. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder if the twist will actually be that Missy has been sincere with her reform efforts and that she sacrifices herself to save Bill, a person who she's made fun of up to the previous episode.
     
  9. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    Genuine question here, how many two-parters can you name (not just Who) where the second part has actually been better than the first? As a rule of thumb, set up is easier than resolution and that goes for Moffat, RTD, every other Who/Trek etc. writer.
     
  10. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    That'd be even more blatantly the same result as last season with Clara...
     
  11. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    I agree with all of this. Moffat has been very frustrating with the killing/reviving business. What's worse is this takes away from the power of the "Everybody lives!" moment in "The Doctor Dances" which, at the time, resonated not just because of the Time War but also because of the many instances of death in the Classic Series, including but not limited to Adric, Sara Kingdom and Katrina.

    That being said, I think it's a little early to say the Paternoster Gang won't be seen again, but I could be wrong. I've been hoping we haven't seen the last of Jack but it's been seven years now...

    Also, I still loathe the Bridgadier revival in "Death in Heaven" and I refuse to ever watch it again.
     
  12. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd probably be more forgiving of Heather saving Bill than Clara getting plucked out of time between heartbeats. At least the Heather "out" seems like a logical outgrowth of what happened in "The Pilot." Clara being plucked from time before her death is, frankly, something that made me shout at my television, 'What the fuck is this bullshit, Moffat?"
     
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  13. Pindar

    Pindar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not really related but I just saw this and it made me wonder if there is a way to tie the caretaker into the new way of doing regenerations.
    [fan speculation]4 could have been there to help the war doctors regeneration kick start[/fan speculation]


    Also does anyone know what this video was for?
     
  14. Romulan_spy

    Romulan_spy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I've wondered if Missy will go back and kill the Master before the events of "World Enough ...". The Master then regenerates into Missy before ever playing Mr Razor. It would explain why Missy does not remember being the Master and pretending to be Mr Razor. She changed her personal timeline and erased those events. It would also bring back Bill, since Missy erased the events where Bill became a cyberman.

    Yeah, that seems like a very Moffat thing to do.
     
  15. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's just a fan video. I love it, especially when the third and tenth Doctors show up. :)
     
  16. Tom

    Tom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Jon Culshaw really does an amazing job imitating 3 and 4's voices.
     
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  17. Pindar

    Pindar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know Culshaw is a fan but I didn't think he would do fan films.

    His 4th is impeccable but his 3rd was very good. A lot better than the guy doing it for Big Finish.
     
  18. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Either way, it's great to see him still in action as The Fourth Doctor. His Third Doctor is great, too. :D
     
  19. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    DS9 Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast is one case of a two parter in which part 2 is better than part 1. TNG Chain of Command is one where part 2 is at least as good as part 1. But yeah, there is too long a list of part 2s that don't measure up to part 1.
    Moffat said after Deep Breath he was done with them. While I guess there's no reason Chibnall couldn't bring them back if he wanted to, the point still stands, they are characters Moffat killed, resurrected and then promptly dropped anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
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  20. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Admiral Admiral

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    Bloody hell, you weren't too far off the mark with that post!