The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

[mos6507]

Star Trek VI is more allegory than science. Everyone knows that it was meant to symbolize the Chernobyl incident. It was more dramatic to have the Excelsior "flipped" than it would be to have the equivalent of Geiger counters in California picking up residual radiation being carried through air currents.

Also, like Chernobyl, it did not doom Russia, but it was a symbol of the waning of the soviet communist system. Likewise, the Khitomer accords are equivalent to Glasnost.

Since we didn't know at the time Russia would open up, only to turn into the kleptocracy it is today under Putin, we had no way to extrapolate what happened to Klingon culture in the gap between Trek VI and TNG, and so that period was never filled in.

 

[BillJ]

Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.

Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.

Star Trek with shitty science? That's unpossible! Next thing you'll tell me is that they put a pink barrier at the edge of the galaxy... or that they can make two complete people out of one in the transporter... or there are giant snowflakes at the edge of the universe... or...

 

[wulfio]

Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.

Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.

Star Trek with shitty science? That's unpossible! Next thing you'll tell me is that they put a pink barrier at the edge of the galaxy... or that they can make two complete people out of one in the transporter... or there are giant snowflakes at the edge of the universe... or...

Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.

 

[BillJ]

Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.

When you start a sentence with "common sense", you'll find many people will respond to you with condescension because that's exactly what you're dishing out.

Mmkay?

 

[USS Triumphant]

The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away,

What magnitude, exactly? We know it was a subspace shockwave. And it seemed to do relatively little to the Excelsior, really, except bounce it around a bit. Maybe the reason for the severity of its interaction with Excelsior was because the ship had propulsion equipment that relied on subspace manipulations, and the wave was damaging ships, frotzing subspace radio, and similarly screwing up other subspace equipment for 100s of light years, but having relatively little effect on the actual material of planets or even people.

 

[wulfio]

Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.

When you start a sentence with "common sense", you'll find many people will respond to you with condescension because that's exactly what you're dishing out.

Mmkay?

No I`m not being condescending. He asked me a question. You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write. Are you a teenager? I hope you don`t communicate with people in real life the same way you do on this board.

 

[BillJ]

You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write.

Just 90%? Shit, I'm slacking.

Though I am honored that you are going around grading all of my posts. Makes me feel special.

 

[wulfio]

The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away,

What magnitude, exactly? We know it was a subspace shockwave. And it seemed to do relatively little to the Excelsior, really, except bounce it around a bit. Maybe the reason for the severity of its interaction with Excelsior was because the ship had propulsion equipment that relied on subspace manipulations, and the wave was damaging ships, frotzing subspace radio, and similarly screwing up other subspace equipment for 100s of light years, but having relatively little effect on the actual material of planets or even people.

This is a material and terminology created by the writers of trek that your basing your argument on. Subspace isn`t a real thing.

Look I like the movie. All I said is the science in TUC was ridiculous, because it is ridiculous. That is star trek, it`s techno babble and pseudo science.

 

[BillJ]

Subspace isn`t a real thing.

Neither is Star Trek.

 

[wulfio]

You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write.

Just 90%? Shit, I'm slacking.

Though I am honored that you are going around grading all of my posts. Makes me feel special.

I really hope for your sake that you`re a teenager.

 

[BillJ]

You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write.

Just 90%? Shit, I'm slacking.

Though I am honored that you are going around grading all of my posts. Makes me feel special.

I really hope for your sake that you`re a teenager.

Been a member since 2001, I'm sure you can do the math.

 

[Anwar]

I think what Spock was saying was that because the Klingons diverted so much of their economy and resources to their military they couldn't maintain their Cold War with the Feds and repair the damage to their World at the same time.

The Accords ended the immediate hostilities and allowed them to repair their World.

And was Praxis a moon of their homeworld? I assumed it was "A" Moon, not the moon in their system. A shockwave like that would've done a lot more damage than just mess up the atmosphere a little.

 

[T'Girl]

And was Praxis a moon of their homeworld?

It would be like if Titan exploded and the Klingon referred to it as "a Human moon." Praxis could even have been located in an adjacent star system to the homeworld.

The damage to the Klingon homeworld was to it's atmosphere, Spock made no mention of surface destruction.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And was Praxis a moon of their homeworld? I assumed it was "A" Moon, not the moon in their system. A shockwave like that would've done a lot more damage than just mess up the atmosphere a little.

Praxis is definitely the moon of Kronos in the classic novel Sarek (where Kronos is left with a rocky ring of rubble and major seismic disturbances) and the movie Into Darkness, where we see it in chunks and Kronos is being evacuated.

 

[Robert Comsol]

The Klingon Empire surely has hundreds of systems either fully colonized by Klingons or under occupation by the Klingons, though.

Yes. But I was wondering how a local event threatening the Klingon homeworld, could make the Starfleet commander-in-chief arrive at this conclusion:

"The Klingon Empire has roughly fifty years of life left."

And Sulu stated "Praxis is their key energy production facility" (near the Klingon homeworld?), yet Kang's wife Mara stated that the Klingon core systems are "poor" (which I interpreted as poor natural resources).

Bob

 

[BillJ]

Yes. But I was wondering how a local event threatening the Klingon homeworld, could make the Starfleet commander-in-chief arrive at this conclusion:

"The Klingon Empire has roughly fifty years of life left."

Likely meaning the Empire would break apart without Kronos.

And Sulu stated "Praxis is their key energy production facility" (near the Klingon homeworld?), yet Kang's wife Mara stated that the Klingon core systems are "poor" (which I interpreted as poor natural resources).

I think you are taking things too literally. Poor doesn't equate to none.

 

[T'Girl]

Poor could also mean "economically mismanaged." The star systems within the Empire could be just as rich in resources as those in the Federation, but if the Klingon economic system is royally fucked up, the Empire as a result would be poor.

Think Russia under communism.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Subspace isn`t a real thing.

Neither is Star Trek.

And actually, sorry, but the verdict is out on whether subspace - or at least, something that works just like it insofar as being a subset of space with a higher absolute speed of light - is real or not.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Poor could also mean "economically mismanaged."

And you think Kang's wife Mara, already a victim of Klingon propaganda, would admit in front of a Starfleet officer that the Klingon economy was mismanaged?

"There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive."

Mara is justifying Klingon expansion, they push outward because they lack resources they need for survival. YMMV.

Bob

 

[Marsden]

I think it's safe to say there was some hyperbole on some of those statements.

The Empire has 50 years left? Will the colonies revolt without that strong central autonomy in Moscow, er Kronos. Maybe the Romulans and Tholians and possibly Cardasians would seize territory on their respective sides while the center is in disarray. There's lots of possiblities.

And just for my opinion, Common Sense and Science aren't on speaking terms, especially when discussing Star Trek.

I think the Shockwave, (he was one of my favorite Decepticons) floated around so long it turned in to a ribbon of energy and started sending people to paradise, and their horses, too.