The destruction of Romulus in the novelverse

[The Wormhole]

Eventually there going to have resolve the impasse at some point won't they?

I've calculated before that we can easily hold off on things until 2021 without addressing the issue.

The Good That Men Do managed to reconcile TATV well enough. I don't see why that couldn't happen here.

Different situation entirely. The Good That Men Do just took advantage of the fact that TATV was a holodeck program, and presented what it claimed to be the "real events." Besides, TATV is one of the more hated episodes of Star Trek, while Trek XI is a successful and popular movie, you won't find as much enthusiasm to change things from XI as there was things from TATV.

Unlikely, because there's no way anyone can know what ultimately happened to Nero and Spock Prime. All that is known is that they went missing.

Although I suppose we could see further adventures of the Kelvin itself in the prime timeline. And possibly appearances by Prime versions of characters like Commodore Paris (although it's also unlikely that Yorktown Station has a prime counterpart, as the technology just isn't there), Balthazar Edison, Alexander Marcus, etc.

Although I suppose we could see further adventures of the Kelvin itself in the prime timeline. And possibly appearances by Prime versions of characters like Commodore Paris (although it's also unlikely that Yorktown Station has a prime counterpart, as the technology just isn't there), Balthazar Edison, Alexander Marcus, etc.

They're not allowed to reference anything from the Abrams movies, period. That includes having Prime Universe versions of characters created in those movies. The most they could probably get away with is a novel with Carol Marcus mentioning her dad's name is Alexander.

 

[publiusr]

I wonder if there may be another option. Long before the 09' reboot--Sternbach had his galactic fault line conjecture that explained the reach of the Phi Puma supernova: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Phi_Puma

So one could suggest that Romulus could be under threat in that stars near it may also be disrupted.

 

[Idran]

I wonder if there may be another option. Long before the 09' reboot--Sternbach had his galactic fault line conjecture that explained the reach of the Phi Puma supernova: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Phi_Puma

So one could suggest that Romulus could be under threat in that stars near it may also be disrupted.

I don't understand what you mean. That's still referencing the Abrams movies. Calling back to old fanon conjecture doesn't change the legal details, because licensing agreements don't care about in-universe minutiae. Saying "no it's really being threatened by this" isn't going to trick Bad Robot's lawyers or a judge.

 

[Voth commando1]

I don't understand what you mean. That's still referencing the Abrams movies. Calling back to old fanon conjecture doesn't change the legal details, because licensing agreements don't care about in-universe minutiae. Saying "no it's really being threatened by this" isn't going to trick Bad Robot's lawyers or a judge.

True true I wonder if any sort of arrangement will ever be made.

 

[JD]

I hope they just don't reboot the past 20 years of IU storytelling and it on continual reloop. I want to see novels going into the 4th millennium.

IU? And what does the 4th millennium have to do with Trek?

Honestly, at this point I've stopped worrying about the future and I'm just enjoying what stories we're getting now.

 

[Voth commando1]

IU? And what does the 4th millennium have to do with Trek?

Honestly, at this point I've stopped worrying about the future and I'm just enjoying what stories we're getting now.

Well no one has gone there before why not? It's the novelverse why not?

 

[JD]

I guess, it just seemed like a weird time to pick, and it's so far out that we have no way to even begin to guess what it would look like. If we were going to go forward, I'd rather stick to an era where things are still recognizable.
Something like that is fine for a time travel story or DTI story, but that's about it.
So what does IU mean? I've novelverse or expanded universe, but I can't think of anything that would give us IU.

 

[Voth commando1]

In universe meaning withi the realm of the work itself. Like it makes sense within the Star Wars galaxy or the history that occurred in middle earth. In-Universe.

 

[JD]

Ah, I thought it was another term for the novel continuity that I wasn't familiar with.

 

[Jedi Ben]

This whole situation is one that I find quite baffling.

As far as I can see there's only 2 options:

Get a new licensing agreement in place that allows it to be mentioned.

Change the rule of canon = onscreen Trek because it never envisaged a TV / film split fiasco, which is what this looks to be.

Unless I'm missing something?

 

[Christopher]

Change the rule of canon = onscreen Trek because it never envisaged a TV / film split fiasco, which is what this looks to be.

That's not a rule, it's just what the word means. People have this strange idea that "canon" is some official seal of approval. But it's really just a descriptive term applied by fans and critics to refer to the original work itself as distinct from derivative works like tie-ins or fan fiction. The label does not make the thing what it is, it's merely a shorthand way of describing what it is. Calling something land doesn't make it land, it just describes the fact that it's different from water. You can't change the "rule" defining what land is so that it includes water, or so that it doesn't include deserts.

Anyway, how canon is defined has nothing to do with how tie-in licenses work. It's just the nature of the beast that some licensees don't have the right to use every aspect of an original work. That's not unique to the current situation with Pocket and Bad Robot. When Marvel Comics got the license to do comics based on Star Trek: The Motion Picture, they didn't have the right to elements from the original series, so they had to avoid doing sequels to TOS episodes or bringing back TOS characters (although they managed to sneak several characters and a number of concepts from TOS under the radar nonetheless). There's a series of unofficial Doctor Who tie-in novels about the character of Alistair Lethbridge-Stewart, licensed by the creators of the character rather than by the BBC (because in the UK, individual TV writers retain the rights to their creations), and originally they were only able to tell stories about him as a colonel because his promotion to brigadier wasn't written by his creators -- although they've since gotten a broader license and have been able to broaden the material they can cover. Similarly, the Australian K9 series has the rights to the K9 character courtesy of his creator, but not to any other elements of the Doctor Who mythos (including K9's design), so they had to redesign him and give him amnesia about his life with the Doctor. Then there's RoboCop: The Series from the '90s, which weirdly had the right to the RoboCop/Alex Murphy character and the basic situation and setting, but not the right to any of the supporting characters, so all the other characters had to be either replaced with surrogates or renamed.

 

[Extrocomp]

Novel continuity is only in the first half of 2386 at the moment, and we have no idea when in 2387 the Hobus stuff goes down.

We know it happened after July, which is when Spock wrote the introduction for Hidden Universe Travel Guide: Vulcan.

 

[Voth commando1]

Could they just say it's Abramsverse event and go on to 2388 with Romulus still existing?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, since the novelists can't even acknowledge the existence of the new timeline or anything derived from it.

Which raises an interesting point, though: People keep saying that the destruction of Romulus is canon and that it has to be taken into account, but that also is an event that only happened in a Kelvinverse movie. So if the writers can't reference anything else from the Kelvin films, why do they have to act as if this happened? What makes it so damn special?

 

[Jinn]

^ No, since the novelists can't even acknowledge the existence of the new timeline or anything derived from it.

Which raises an interesting point, though: People keep saying that the destruction of Romulus is canon and that it has to be taken into account, but that also is an event that only happened in a Kelvinverse movie. So if the writers can't reference anything else from the Kelvin films, why do they have to act as if this happened? What makes it so damn special?

They have to write everything in accordance with the canon. The new movies are canon.

 

[Relayer1]

Catch 22...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They have to write everything in accordance with the canon. The new movies are canon.

Remember what I just said. I'm well aware that the movies are canon, but the fact remains: the destruction of Romulus only happened in a Kelvin movie. If the novels are forbidden from referencing anything ELSE in these movies - then why do they have to mention this one?

I mean, if we're talking canon, then logically speaking, everything in a Kelvin flick is canon. Yet out of all that, only Romulus' destruction is something that must be mentioned. Why is that, hmmm?

 

[Jinn]

Remember what I just said. I'm well aware that the movies are canon, but the fact remains: the destruction of Romulus only happened in a Kelvin movie. If the novels are forbidden from referencing anything ELSE in these movies - then why do they have to mention this one?

They are also forbidden to mention that.

I mean, if we're talking canon, then logically speaking, everything in a Kelvin flick is canon. Yet out of all that, only Romulus' destruction is something that must be mentioned. Why is that, hmmm?

Because the other events from these movies are set in an alternate timeline. There is no reason to mention them and it wouldn't make sense in-universe. So, the three movies are canon, only a few minutes are set in our timeline, they can't be referenced, but have to be mentioned because their effects would be very important to the novel's story.

 

[DimesDan]

There have been a few, very small references to aspects of the Kelvinverse films over the past few years in the novels.

 

[Christopher]

Prime Timeline things established in the 2009 film:

The Kelvin
George and Winona Kirk
Captain Robau and the rest of the Kelvin crew
The 2230s Starfleet uniforms
George Kirk living to see James Kirk become captain of the Enterprise
Bald Romulans with forehead tattoos
Romulus's destruction in a supernova
Red Matter
Spock's promise to save the Romulans
The Jellyfish (Spock's scout ship)
The Narada and its technology
Nero
Nero's wife
Ayel and the rest of the Narada's crew
Nero's staff weapon
"Transwarp beaming" (possibly the same thing as subspace transporters from TNG: "Bloodlines")

Prime Timeline (pre-2233) things established in STID:
Elements of Khan's pre-Botany Bay backstory (that they were "condemned as criminals," that they have magic healing blood, and that Khan planned mass genocide)

Prime Timeline (pre-2233) things established in STB:
The Franklin as the first Warp 4 ship
Captain Edison and his crew
The MACOs folded into Starfleet on the UFP's founding
The 2160s Starfleet jumpsuit uniforms

Also, of course, it can be assumed that any planets or species introduced in the Kelvin films exist in Prime too. And maybe I've missed a few other details; I don't know the latter two films as well as the first.

However, the updated Encyclopedia has proposed that the Red Matter breach that created the Kelvin Timeline may have had retroactive effects on its history, so it's possible that not all of these things necessarily exist in Prime. Khan's history in particular seems inconsistent with what we know, although there could be other explanations (for instance, the healing blood could've been the result of an experiment Marcus performed on Khan, and Spock could've been mistaken about the genocide). Anyway, Prime canon has plenty of contradictions within itself already.