The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

[davejames]

The episode shows how avoiding war can be difficult but worth it. It was obviously an easier solution in the practical sense to just destroy both sides to end the war. However, easier doesn't mean better. In the end, the Doctor found a better solution using his creativity and ingenuity. That is thoroughly a Doctor Who theme and perfect for the anniversary special.

Agreed. Plus it's not like it was just some casual or arbitrary decision on the Doctor's part to change history. It still took three regenerations and hundred of years of agonizing over his prior decision before the Doctor was able to come up with this new solution.

And it required a Doctor as nutty and off the wall as the Eleventh to think of it as well (who had a Companion like Clara who would inspire him to try something different, and more in keeping with who he is).

So I don't see this as Moffat "undoing" the effects of the Time War at all. This is just the natural progression of the story, with the Doctor doing what he does best and coming up with a new and completely different way to approach the problem and save the day.

 

[Iamnotspock]

when "MATT SMITH" popped up you mean the Doctor Who title was the 1963 version

I loved the I Am The Doctor theme during that sequence. I want the soundtrack. now!

The Majestic Tale of a Madman With a Box, from the Series 6 soundtrack. *Cough*Youtube*Cough*

 

[3chordboy]

when "MATT SMITH" popped up you mean the Doctor Who title was the 1963 version

I loved the I Am The Doctor theme during that sequence. I want the soundtrack. now!

The Majestic Tale of a Madman With a Box, from the Series 6 soundtrack. *Cough*Youtube*Cough*

yes! excellent! I think I love you a little bit haven't listened to the series 6 soundtrack in a year or so now. lovely stuff

 

[Samurai8472]

The music that is playing when Hurt regenerates, is that new??? I rather like it.

It's "I am the Doctor"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-QPDGhCtM


They used it ALOT in the special with a few of the variations over the last few years

No, it is not, there is a build up to to it, you can here a little bit of it in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHnAnBmEbcc

I have all the soundtracks and i just can't place that exact peice of music .

Whoops

It's "Sad Man with a box" from series 5 when the doctor flies the pandorica into the Tardis explosion.

 

[Christopher]

I think "I Am the Doctor" is the best Doctor Who motif since the main title theme. It's incredibly catchy and exciting.

Does anyone know the name of the cue that BBC America generally uses in its DW promos? In particular, which was heard during the "stay tuned" thing they showed just before the live simulcast began last Saturday?

 

[Samurai8472]

^

Could it be this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM

 

[Mr Light]

How's this for an alternate solution to the story:

The Doctors use the Moment to teleport all of the Gallifreyan children to the present day, but everything else still happens. That way the threat of the Time Lords remains dealt with and the Doctor isn't a kiddie killer. And now the Doctor can be in charge of a new Time Lord society of little kids trying to teach them to not be evil bastards.

That's something I could have lived with because it maintains the tragedy of the Doctor's actions, yet it also gives him a reprieve from the worst of it and gives him a new hope for the future by making him the father to a whole society of children.

It's kind of like "The Fires of Pompeii". He can't save everyone because that's what happened in history, but he could save the one family. With the guy whose face he will wear in the near future

 

[PorthosShadow]

How's this for an alternate solution to the story:

The Doctors use the Moment to teleport all of the Gallifreyan children to the present day, but everything else still happens. That way the threat of the Time Lords remains dealt with and the Doctor isn't a kiddie killer. And now the Doctor can be in charge of a new Time Lord society of little kids trying to teach them to not be evil bastards.

That's something I could have lived with because it maintains the tragedy of the Doctor's actions, yet it also gives him a reprieve from the worst of it and gives him a new hope for the future by making him the father to a whole society of children.

It's kind of like "The Fires of Pompeii". He can't save everyone because that's what happened in history, but he could save the one family. With the guy whose face he will wear in the near future

Since I'm firmly rooted in the camp that what we saw in TDOTD was what always happened then I don't think it takes away from The Doctor at all. Three of The Doctors still had to live with that survivors guilt and the tragedy of what they had done. What it does do is give those Doctors and the ones to come some redemption.

Also, we don't yet know what The Doctor will find when he (if) makes back home. Nor do we know the long term consequences are so I say it's too early.

 

[Christopher]

^

Could it be this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM

No, it's a more intense and building arrangement of the "I Am the Doctor" ostinato, starting out on low brass for a few bars with other, higher-pitched instruments joining in sequentially.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Also, we don't yet know what The Doctor will find when he (if) makes back home.

Haha, yeah, what if he finds a very early version of Gallifrey, before Rassilon and Omega?

 

[Admiral_Young]

It probably doesn't help but so far these have been the identified previously used tracks in "The Day of the Doctor" :

Original Theme
Clara?
Slitheen
The Majestic Tale
Words Win Wars
Fish Custard
The Time of Angels
Trenzalore
I am the Doctor
Everything Has to End Some Time
The Sad Man With a Box
The Leaf
The Wedding of River Song
Altering Lives (slightly tweaked)

 

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, I find the whole thing takes away from the threat the Time Lords posed. I'm sure the Doctor always knew there were innocent people on Gallifrey that didn't deserve to die and that contributed to the guilt he's felt. The fact that he, the man who abhors violence death went ahead and committed genocide against two races, one of them his own emphasises just how bad the Time War had gotten and how much of a threat the Daleks and even the Time Lords posed.
But now all that is negated and the Doctor simply only thought he committed the atrocity that has haunted him all this time.

The episode shows how avoiding war can be difficult but worth it. It was obviously an easier solution in the practical sense to just destroy both sides to end the war. However, easier doesn't mean better. In the end, the Doctor found a better solution using his creativity and ingenuity.

Personally, I find that the character in the new series is defined by his guilt and shame over the fact that he can always save the day and find solutions to all manner of problems through "creativity and ingenuity" yet when it came to the Time War the only thing that worked in the end was eradicating his own race. It sells how devastating the Time War was and reflects that war is hell and things that happen to people in war will be with them their whole lives. The man who can save anyone and change anything for the better could not do the same for his own people is a perfect way to sum up the tragic hero figure the Doctor is. And now all that is washed away just so we can have another of Moffat's "Everyone Lives!" endings.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Grown tired of the Guilt Doctor, did so well back before Donna. I'm good with this. The whole 'Last of the Timelords' schtick got old. Especially, when the Master, Rassilon, the Daleks, and the kitchen sink had no trouble getting out of the time lock, humbug on that whole business. The scene with the rabbit was the best use of that pretentious 'Oncoming Storm' title in the series.

 

[Christopher]

I like the "Everybody lives!" endings. One thing I never cared for about the original series was the hypocrisy of portraying the Doctor as a man of peace but almost always having him (or his allies, usually with his help) blow up the bad guys at the end. At least the new series has actually let him succeed at finding peaceful solutions now and then, although he still quite often fails to talk the villains out of forcing his hand.

So really, "the man who can save anyone and change anything for the better could not do the same for his own people" is not an accurate assessment. In fact, he's a man who tries to save everyone but so rarely succeeds that it's a joyous moment when he actually manages to pull it off. "Just this once, everybody lives!" And if he's finding such solutions more frequently these days, maybe it's because he's learned from his past failures and is more strongly motivated to avoid repeating them.

 

[Samurai8472]

^

Could it be this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=u8laoHw6ThM

No, it's a more intense and building arrangement of the "I Am the Doctor" ostinato, starting out on low brass for a few bars with other, higher-pitched instruments joining in sequentially.

The Majestic Tale (Of A Madman In A Box)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCHfVZIAZ6s

 

[Christopher]

The Majestic Tale (Of A Madman In A Box)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCHfVZIAZ6s

No, I listened to that when it was linked previously in the thread. If it were the one I wanted, I wouldn't have needed to ask. The one I'm thinking of is faster-paced, and the ostinato is on brass, not strings.

Come on, BBCA uses it on many, many of its Doctor Who promos. They played it once right before the 20-minute live pre-show on Saturday and once right before the simulcast started. I'm surprised nobody seems to know what cue I'm talking about.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The Tenth Doctor said something to the extent that saving Galifrey would be changing their own personal timeline.

Also when the Doctor's are explaining to the Timelords their plan. Both the 10th and 11th state that the alternative to freezing Galifrey in a pocket universe is burning and that they have already seen that happen.

You analyze the Bad Wolf macguffin and it's apparent that she is there to change history and influence the Doctor's.
Bad Wolf opens time tunnels to allow the 3 Doctors to interact. After showing the War Doctor his future selves. The War Doctor still resolves to use The Moment. The Bad Wolf interrupts him and lowers whatever barriers that have the events of the timewar timelocked.

With the timelock no longer a factor. Eleven is allowed to put his plan to save Galifrey with his past and future selves across time. I think it was way back in "Father's Day" where the Doctor addresses why he can't go back and change events of the timewar to even save his family. The events were timelocked and unchangeable.

I recently found this little chestnut, where Moffat affirms that what happened in TDOTD was changing events.
"It was the plan from the start – all the Doctors… all the Doctors will fly in to save Gallifrey and change the timeline"

http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/25/steven-moffat-peter-capaldi-cameo-in-doctor-who-50th-anniversary-was-the-plan-all-along-4201331/

Doctor Who plays fast and lose with it's time travel rules. If this was Star Trek we would say that the events of TDOTD created a parallel universe. Where a lot of the events will be the same but different slightly going forward. Sort of like ST09. However, we are not going back to relive the events of 9-10 and 11. I don't think we're supposed to analyze things too closely with regards to Dr Who. Now that we are past TDOTD we can say that (for 11) there was one timeline where he did use The Moment, and another timeline where he did not.

 

[Christopher]

^Yes, but as I already quoted above, there's another Moffat interview where he says that this is what really happened all along. He's giving mixed messages.

I think the intent is that the Doctor has subjectively changed his past, because he believed it happened one way, and now he knows it happened a different way. So even though the events haven't objectively changed, he is changed as if they had been. The impact his past has on him is now altered.

You often hear it said that some new historical or archaeological discovery will "rewrite history." That doesn't mean there's time travel being used, but it means that the past as a conceptual construct is changed. All we know of the past is what we piece together from memory and evidence, so the case can be made that the past is a concept, an idea, and thus can be changed when we discover evidence we didn't have before.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ Ah i didn't know there was another interview. Thanks.

What you say makes a lot of sense. I only wish Moffat was as clear in his delivery and explanation of things. He still seems coy and secretive about his work, even after it has been aired and seen by millions.

 

[intrinsical]

^Yes, but as I already quoted above, there's another Moffat interview where he says that this is what really happened all along. He's giving mixed messages.

I think the intent is that the Doctor has subjectively changed his past, because he believed it happened one way, and now he knows it happened a different way. So even though the events haven't objectively changed, he is changed as if they had been. The impact his past has on him is now altered.

You often hear it said that some new historical or archaeological discovery will "rewrite history." That doesn't mean there's time travel being used, but it means that the past as a conceptual construct is changed. All we know of the past is what we piece together from memory and evidence, so the case can be made that the past is a concept, an idea, and thus can be changed when we discover evidence we didn't have before.

Quite right, although my interpretation is slightly different. For me I feel that The Doctor has learned that he can rewrite time, even (and especially) fixed points in time, as long as the observable event appears unchanged.

It is why swapping his own body with the Teselecta worked even though The Doctor's death at Lake Silencio is a fixed point in time. The Doctor still appears to be shot several times and appears to have died. But in actual fact, The Doctor remains very much alive.

The same thing happened in Day of The Doctor. Instead of The Moment destroying Galifrey and the Daleks destroyed themselves in the crossfire, The Doctors saved Galifrey in a pocket dimension but by observation it still appears as if Galifrey has been destroyed. The Observed Fixed Point remains unchanged. I kinda like this explanation because it kinda suggests a connection with the direct observation of quantum mechanic events resulting in the collapse of many possibilities into one possible outcome.