The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

[JoeZhang]

Straight from The Moffat's Mouth:

..."So it had to be the story of what really happened, that he's forgotten. Of course he didn't - he's Doctor Who! He doesn't do things like that!"

Well, that would seem to settle it.


Meanwhile, the bit about there being children on Gallifrey would seem to pretty decisively decanonize the Cartmel Masterplan and the Virgin New Adventures, since the Gallifreyan "Looms" in the books created new Time Lords as full-grown adults.

Were they ever in to start with? we've know for a long time there were children on Gallifrey - why would the Doctor need a crib and we saw both the Master and the Doctor as Children plus the third doctor mentioned being a young boy then of course you have Susan.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The music that is playing when Hurt regenerates, is that new??? I rather like it.

Afraid not. I can't quite place it right now in a specific episode but i'm fairly certain that it is from the Amy Pond era.

 

[Samurai8472]

The music that is playing when Hurt regenerates, is that new??? I rather like it.

It's "I am the Doctor"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-QPDGhCtM


They used it ALOT in the special with a few of the variations over the last few years

 

[Timewalker]

Well, we've seen that UNIT scientific advisors tend to be Doctor groupies; Kate was talking on the phone with Malcolm, the groupie/advisor from "Planet of the Dead." Really, it's kind of understandable. To UNIT sciencey types, the Doctor would be a rock star.

Which is why I think it's one of #4's original scarves. It's like a badge of honour to be worn by the top UNIT boffin.

Except the Fourth Doctor didn't work with UNIT that much. Only three times on television. You'd think if there was a particular Doctor that was worshipped at UNIT, it'd be the Third.

The stories where the Doctor, Harry, and Sarah Jane were traveling together all qualify as UNIT stories, since Harry Sullivan worked for UNIT.

Meanwhile, the bit about there being children on Gallifrey would seem to pretty decisively decanonize the Cartmel Masterplan and the Virgin New Adventures, since the Gallifreyan "Looms" in the books created new Time Lords as full-grown adults.

Surely the young Master in "The Sound of Drums" did the same?

In "Shada" Romana II makes reference to something she learned "when I was a Time Tot." That means that at some point, Lady Romanadvoratrelundar was a child.

And it would be pretty bizarre for the Doctor to have a granddaughter who was created as a full-grown adult.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Has anyone heard what the final viewing figures are? Also, what about box office gross? Box Office Mojo doesn't have anything.

 

[dansigal]

Let's take another look at the narration of the teaser trailer now that we've seen the episode:

I’ve been running all my lives, through time and space; every second of every minute of every day for over 900 years. I fought for peace in a universe at war. Now the time has come to face the choices I have made in the name of the Doctor. Our future depends on one single moment of one impossible day, the day I’ve been running from all my life. The day of the Doctor.

First off, shouldn't it be more like 1200 years? Unless he's lying.

But the main problem is that penultimate sentence. Presumably the impossible day was when the Doctors came back through the time lock to stand with their former self, and the "single moment" was actually the Moment. But that's not the day he's been running from all his lives -- he's only been running from it for his past three lives. So that's kind of an overstatement. The narration led me to believe the story would have something to do with the very beginning of the Doctor's journey and the reasons he fled from Gallifrey. Which, of course, it didn't.

So if we're really breaking down the phrasing, the explanation may be in the voice of the narrator. In the first part, when he references the 900 years, he says he's been running all his "lives" purposely using the plural to distinguish each incarnation as a separate life. But in the penultimate sentence he uses the singular "life". Since it's 11 that's narrating, and he's "The Man Who Forgets", its probably referencing just his life as the doctor. So to say it's the day he's been running from all his life isn't an overstatement, it's just a reference to the way 11 has chosen to live his incarnation, running from that day.

 

[MacLeod]

I don't think the final UK viewing figure will be out to next week to allow the +7 via DVR to be included.

 

[Photoman15]

Jeez...the Timelords/Gallifreyians had children. That loom crap is just that non-canon crap. I don't believe the Cartmel Master Plan said there were no kids. I saw his interview the other day, and it didn't mention a kidless, loomed society.

Please stop with the loom. It's ridiculous and whoever wrote that must have been high.

 

[inflatabledalek]

My long winded rambly thoughts, but in short, it's a good'un:

http://thesolarpool.weebly.com/1/post/2013/11/every-doctor-has-his-day.html

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Has anyone heard what the final viewing figures are? Also, what about box office gross? Box Office Mojo doesn't have anything.

UK Box office for after the first showings were £1.7m but I don't know about the later showings. No final viewing figures for 2 weeks but there's a peak of 10.6m on the overnights.

 

[Tom]

The music that is playing when Hurt regenerates, is that new??? I rather like it.

It's "I am the Doctor"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-QPDGhCtM


They used it ALOT in the special with a few of the variations over the last few years

No, it is not, there is a build up to to it, you can here a little bit of it in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHnAnBmEbcc

I have all the soundtracks and i just can't place that exact peice of music .

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Straight from The Moffat's Mouth:

"It was about a year ago, I remember thinking, 'What occasion in the Doctor's life is the most important?' - well, it's the day he blew up Gallifrey.

"Then I tried to imagine what writing that scene would be like and I thought, 'There's kids on Gallifrey and he's going to push the button? He wouldn't!' I don't care what's at stake, he's not going to do it.

"So that was the story - of course he never did that, he couldn't. He's the Doctor - he's the man who doesn't do that. He's defined by the fact that he doesn't do that, whatever the cost, he will find another way.

"So it had to be the story of what really happened, that he's forgotten. Of course he didn't - he's Doctor Who! He doesn't do things like that!"

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Well, then Moffat's an idiot. I'm sorry, but he's wrong. The Doctor normally wouldn't do that, yes... but this was war. At the end of the day, the Doctor will make the hard choice if there's absolutely no other path to take. Cause that was the crux of the Doctor's characterization in at least the first four and a half years of the show. That he, a good man, DID do that. That he really, really DIDN'T have a choice. That at the end of the day, the Time Lords and the Daleks were each on the brink of destroying the universe. And what is the first series, if not the Doctor's steady return to form following the war?

I'm sure he means it in a good nature, but honestly it makes his own story far worse. It totally undermines the element of choice, by having Eleven not make a decision based on his experience, but one based on his memory. This isn't Blink, Moffat!

Anyway, as I don't take his reasoning seriously, I don't support his argument. Thus, I disagree with him.

Wow.

 

[Kolrad]

I would have to rewatch all the episodes (oh! too bad... :P ) to see if the Doctor ever said anything about Gallifrey's destruction that contradicts "Day of the Doctor," but on the occasion I remember most, here's what he said:

You think it'll last forever. People and cars and concrete. But it won't. One day it's all gone. Even the sky. My planet's gone. It's dead. It burned like the Earth. It's just rocks and dust. Before its time.

It may be that the one of the first things the Doctor saw after regenerating into Ecclestone was the destruction of Gallifrey from a distance. He only had to travel to the right place and time to catch the light from the explosion as it passed, and he surely has the technology to get a good look at it-- just, obviously, not good enough to tell that the Daleks were destroyed by each other rather than the planet exploding.

The other thing I remember him saying is that he knew the Time Lords were dead because if they were alive, he'd be able to sense it "in here" (pointing to his head). Suspended animation in a pocket universe evidently does the trick too.

I'm trying to remember if anything else he said conflicts with what we've seen.


Oh, on a different topic, this episode also "fixed" something that had bothered me about "The End of Time." In that episode, the justification for the Doctor's decision to destroy Gallifrey seemed to be that the Time Lords were beyond saving-- they had been so twisted and driven mad by the war that they were no better than the Daleks (with the exception of the two council members who stood against the majority).

That seemed to me like a departure from the way the Doctor spoke about his people in earlier episodes. For instance, in "Father's Day," when the Reapers were attacking because of the paradox created when Rose saved her father's life, he said something like "My people would have put a stop to this." While he may have disagreed with them in the past, he still seemed to see them as having a powerful impact for good on the universe.

"Day of the Doctor" showed that it was only Rassilon and most of the council who were corrupted to that degree (and I expect the Doctor will have to deal with them if he finds Gallifrey)-- the rest of the planet was not involved.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

That he really, really DIDN'T have a choice.

If he didn't have a choice and there was no other path to take, how did he so successfully pull it off in the 50th anniversary?

 

[Kolrad]

Well, then Moffat's an idiot. I'm sorry, but he's wrong. The Doctor normally wouldn't do that, yes... but this was war. At the end of the day, the Doctor will make the hard choice if there's absolutely no other path to take. Cause that was the crux of the Doctor's characterization in at least the first four and a half years of the show. That he, a good man, DID do that. That he really, really DIDN'T have a choice. That at the end of the day, the Time Lords and the Daleks were each on the brink of destroying the universe. And what is the first series, if not the Doctor's steady return to form following the war?

I'm sure he means it in a good nature, but honestly it makes his own story far worse. It totally undermines the element of choice, by having Eleven not make a decision based on his experience, but one based on his memory. This isn't Blink, Moffat!

I don't see that. The element of choice was still central to the story. In fact, not only the War Doctor, but also Ten and Eleven were presented with the choice of whether to destroy Gallifrey, and for the first time they took full ownership of it, instead of condemning and repressing the memory of the War Doctor (denying him even the name "Doctor") as they had both been doing until then.

Eleven wasn't making the decision based on memory. Both Ten and the War Doctor forgot what they did at the end of the episode. The new option essentially occurred to all three of them at the same time.

You can certainly raise the criticism that sometimes there is no "third option" that allows you to escape the impossible choice. But that criticism remains the same whether this is what the Doctor "always" did or not. And it's very much in the Doctor's nature not to give up until he finds that impossible third option.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Watched the ending again.
Right before the Curator shows up, Clara enters the TARDIS.
I wonder how long Jenna had to stand around in the box until they were done filming the scene.
When the camera cuts to Matt's face you can still see her red skirt through a crack in the door.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

It's bigger on the inside. They have the backstage in there.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Well, then Moffat's an idiot. I'm sorry, but he's wrong. The Doctor normally wouldn't do that, yes... but this was war. At the end of the day, the Doctor will make the hard choice if there's absolutely no other path to take. Cause that was the crux of the Doctor's characterization in at least the first four and a half years of the show. That he, a good man, DID do that. That he really, really DIDN'T have a choice. That at the end of the day, the Time Lords and the Daleks were each on the brink of destroying the universe. And what is the first series, if not the Doctor's steady return to form following the war?

I'm sure he means it in a good nature, but honestly it makes his own story far worse. It totally undermines the element of choice, by having Eleven not make a decision based on his experience, but one based on his memory. This isn't Blink, Moffat!

I don't see that. The element of choice was still central to the story. In fact, not only the War Doctor, but also Ten and Eleven were presented with the choice of whether to destroy Gallifrey, and for the first time they took full ownership of it, instead of condemning and repressing the memory of the War Doctor (denying him even the name "Doctor") as they had both been doing until then.

Eleven wasn't making the decision based on memory. Both Ten and the War Doctor forgot what they did at the end of the episode. The new option essentially occurred to all three of them at the same time.

You can certainly raise the criticism that sometimes there is no "third option" that allows you to escape the impossible choice. But that criticism remains the same whether this is what the Doctor "always" did or not. And it's very much in the Doctor's nature not to give up until he finds that impossible third option.

Please everyone remember the context of the Doctor's decision. In the "End of Time" Rassilon revealed his plan to initate the "Final Sanction". Which would've cause the timelords to become beings of pure consciousness. Free of time and cause and effect. This would have also wiped out the whole of creation.

That was the deciding factor for the Doctor. The loss of 2.47 billion timelord children lives is indeed tragic. However, are those lives more important than the lives of the trillions of innocent beings across the universe?

 

[davejames]

Well, then Moffat's an idiot. I'm sorry, but he's wrong. The Doctor normally wouldn't do that, yes... but this was war. At the end of the day, the Doctor will make the hard choice if there's absolutely no other path to take. Cause that was the crux of the Doctor's characterization in at least the first four and a half years of the show. That he, a good man, DID do that. That he really, really DIDN'T have a choice. That at the end of the day, the Time Lords and the Daleks were each on the brink of destroying the universe. And what is the first series, if not the Doctor's steady return to form following the war?

I'm sure he means it in a good nature, but honestly it makes his own story far worse. It totally undermines the element of choice, by having Eleven not make a decision based on his experience, but one based on his memory. This isn't Blink, Moffat!

Anyway, as I don't take his reasoning seriously, I don't support his argument. Thus, I disagree with him.

Wow.

Perhaps, but if the price of saving Gallifrey was the Doctor having to carry the burden for a few years of believing he had killed them all, I'm sure he would gladly take it.

He still had to sacrifice a huge part of his soul in the process, after all, which is no small thing.

And Eleven also had no way of knowing if their gambit is what saved Gallifrey or ultimately caused it's destruction. For all he knew, this was the way Gallifrey had always been destroyed and he was simply fulfilling his part of history. Which is why everyone seems so uncertain afterward, until the Curator finally suggests at the end that their plan worked.

 

[Christopher]

Meanwhile, the bit about there being children on Gallifrey would seem to pretty decisively decanonize the Cartmel Masterplan and the Virgin New Adventures, since the Gallifreyan "Looms" in the books created new Time Lords as full-grown adults.

Were they ever in to start with? we've know for a long time there were children on Gallifrey - why would the Doctor need a crib and we saw both the Master and the Doctor as Children plus the third doctor mentioned being a young boy then of course you have Susan.

Well, I think the idea in the novels was that Susan was the last child on Gallifrey, or something. Anyway, you're right -- there have been prior references in the modern show to Time Lord children, but I didn't realize the significance of them until now.

But the main problem is that penultimate sentence. Presumably the impossible day was when the Doctors came back through the time lock to stand with their former self, and the "single moment" was actually the Moment. But that's not the day he's been running from all his lives -- he's only been running from it for his past three lives. So that's kind of an overstatement. The narration led me to believe the story would have something to do with the very beginning of the Doctor's journey and the reasons he fled from Gallifrey. Which, of course, it didn't.

So if we're really breaking down the phrasing, the explanation may be in the voice of the narrator. In the first part, when he references the 900 years, he says he's been running all his "lives" purposely using the plural to distinguish each incarnation as a separate life. But in the penultimate sentence he uses the singular "life". Since it's 11 that's narrating, and he's "The Man Who Forgets", its probably referencing just his life as the doctor. So to say it's the day he's been running from all his life isn't an overstatement, it's just a reference to the way 11 has chosen to live his incarnation, running from that day.

Good point. Assuming that transcript is accurate, then you may be right.

And when he says "Our future depends" on that moment, the initial impression is that he mean everyone's future, humanity's and the universe's in general or something like that, but he probably meant either the Doctors' future or the Time Lords/Gallifreyans' future.