The Dark Knight question

[Elemental]

How come after Batman interrogates Joker and has to choose between Harvey and Rachel, he tells Gordon that he will go after Rachel letting Gordon go to Dent.... however, afterward we find they actually switched destinations? Did they make a cell phone call en route and decide to swap places? It doesn't seem there's ever any explanation for that. I can understand why Bruce's first thought would be to save Rachel, but then he goes for Harvey because he decides he is the more important one for Gothem, but they never really say if this is the reason.

 

[Cicero]

^ The Joker lied.

 

[Sci]

How come after Batman interrogates Joker and has to choose between Harvey and Rachel, he tells Gordon that he will go after Rachel letting Gordon go to Dent.... however, afterward we find they actually switched destinations? Did they make a cell phone call en route and decide to swap places? It doesn't seem there's ever any explanation for that. I can understand why Bruce's first thought would be to save Rachel, but then he goes for Harvey because he decides he is the more important one for Gothem, but they never really say if this is the reason.

The Joker lied when he gave them Harvey and Rachel's locations; he claimed Rachel was where Harvey was and that Harvey was where Rachel was. He did this to force Batman to save Harvey over Rachel. Remember his line? "Killing is a choice." He forced Batman to make a choice he didn't want to make.

 

[Hermiod]

If Dent had died right then and there then he dies even more of a hero than he was in life - as he said, you either die a hero or see yourself live long enough to become the villain.

 

[Dream]

I thought they made it pretty obvious in the movie. Too bad Gordon was so damn slow.

 

[Hermiod]

I thought they made it pretty obvious in the movie. Too bad Gordon was so damn slow.

Gordon wasn't driving.

 

[Dream]

I thought they made it pretty obvious in the movie. Too bad Gordon was so damn slow.

Gordon wasn't driving.

Gordon's men. There. Happy? It's been a while since I saw the movie.

 

[Hermiod]

I thought they made it pretty obvious in the movie. Too bad Gordon was so damn slow.

Gordon wasn't driving.

Gordon's men. There. Happy? It's been a while since I saw the movie.

No, I demand that you issue a full public apology for your heinous slight on Commissioner Gordon's good name!

 

[Anwar]

I do have to wonder why such an emphasis was put on Dent as Gotham's hero. I mean Jim Gordon is the real hero of Gotham with all the stuff he goes through and has for years, we didn't even hear about Dent in the first movie.

Or would Joker trying to break Gordon just be a retread of "Killing Joke"?

 

[Hermiod]

I do have to wonder why such an emphasis was put on Dent as Gotham's hero. I mean Jim Gordon is the real hero of Gotham with all the stuff he goes through and has for years, we didn't even hear about Dent in the first movie.

Gordon was still on his way up when the movie begins. Anyone wanting to knock him would just have to look at the histories of the people working for him, all of whom were investigated by Dent when he was at Internal Affairs.

I think part of what they were trying to say is that Dent's attitude gave a lot of the other good guys who were afraid to stand up the courage to do so. Batman does a lot of good, but he's a guy in a mask.

Dent going after the gangs the way he does, with no mask, nothing to hide behind, in a court of law sends a much stronger message than Batman going after them in alleyways at night.

Batman works outside the law, he's a weapon that the police and the DA's office don't even acknowledge they have - they claim he's a masked vigilante and they're investigating him.

Or would Joker trying to break Gordon just be a retread of "Killing Joke"?

Possibly.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I find it an extraordinary example of the Joker's super-human planning in this film. Gordon nearly got there in time to save Rachel. If the Joker had mis-timed his reveal by only a few minutes or if traffic had been clearer, then they would have saved both of them.

And then, most people seem so sure that the Joker deliberately lied when he gave the opposite locations for Rachel & Harvey. I don't 100% assume that. I think it's also possible that the Joker got them genuinely confused or that he just didn't give a shit. That in itself is chaotic.

But then, the Joker in this movie is less a real character and more a plot device that Nolan uses to examine issues of anarchy & order. How else is he so flawlessly able to execute his crimes even though his henchmen are all escaped mental patients?

I do have to wonder why such an emphasis was put on Dent as Gotham's hero.

Yeah. As Mike Nelson said in the Rifftrax of the movie, "Most people don't know what the D.A. does or what 'D.A.' even stands for."

 

[captcalhoun]

come on, even i know DA is District Attorney and it's a top lawyer postion and i'm a bloody Brit.

 

[Aeon]

Same here and I'm a bloody Finn.

 

[Elemental]

How come after Batman interrogates Joker and has to choose between Harvey and Rachel, he tells Gordon that he will go after Rachel letting Gordon go to Dent.... however, afterward we find they actually switched destinations? Did they make a cell phone call en route and decide to swap places? It doesn't seem there's ever any explanation for that. I can understand why Bruce's first thought would be to save Rachel, but then he goes for Harvey because he decides he is the more important one for Gothem, but they never really say if this is the reason.

The Joker lied when he gave them Harvey and Rachel's locations; he claimed Rachel was where Harvey was and that Harvey was where Rachel was. He did this to force Batman to save Harvey over Rachel. Remember his line? "Killing is a choice." He forced Batman to make a choice he didn't want to make.

I realize he wanted him to make a choice but I don't recall ever hearing anything to say that they were not in the location Joker said they were. I did consider this as a possibility though.

 

[Hermiod]

^I'm not sure what you mean. Batman clearly says he's going to save Rachel, so Gordon goes after Dent. When Batman gets there he finds Dent instead, the Joker had switched the addresses.

 

[Aragorn]

Batman was also taken aback to see Harvey instead of Rachel.

 

[Ethros]

^I'm not sure what you mean. Batman clearly says he's going to save Rachel, so Gordon goes after Dent. When Batman gets there he finds Dent instead, the Joker had switched the addresses.

Mmm, no offence to the OP, but sorry, this is extremely obvious

 

[Hermiod]

^Which is why I don't get the confusion.

The only issue is that for a guy who believes in chaos and questions the sense in making plans, the Joker sure makes some elaborate ones.

 

[David cgc]

The only issue is that for a guy who believes in chaos and questions the sense in making plans, the Joker sure makes some elaborate ones.

Didn't you read the thread?

^ The Joker lied.

 

[Servo]

I realize he wanted him to make a choice but I don't recall ever hearing anything to say that they were not in the location Joker said they were. I did consider this as a possibility though.

While the Joker never acually came out and said " I lied about the addresses", it was spelled out perfectly if you look at his motivations.

Firstly, he needed Dent alive, since it was Dent's downfall that would be instrumental in achieving his endgame. If Dent had died in the explosion, then it all would have fallen apart. In fact, rather than breaking Gotham's spirit, it probably would unite the city against the Joker and the rest of the criminals.
Secondly, Rachel's death was a critical factor in tipping Dent over the edge, so again, it was always going to be her who died while Dent survived.

The Joker knew Batman would get to either location faster than Gordon, especially with the added motivation of knowing Rachel's life was in danger, so he used that against Batman to ensure that Dent would be saved in time.