• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Curse of Oak Island

Problem is, if I recall my chemistry correctly, there is only one molecule’s worth of difference between lead and gold. This was one of the primary reasons why many people thought alchemy was possible. The mass would be negligible without some super-sensitive instruments to derive what the mass of the cross should be, based on established surface area and what it actually is.
 
Putting aside for a moment that the basic premise seems like nonsense, and a couple hundred years of treasure hunting has contaminated the site beyond any recovery, what's supposed to be the theory here, again?

Knights Templar (or random other conspiracy theory) came to the island and managed to dig a narrow hole 100' or more deep, buried a huge treasure, and then filled it back in? All with late-medieval tech? Also, randomly a bunch of other holes? or maybe it was a pirate protecting his loot?

I guess the depth part is my biggest confusion. At that depth, it's being buried FOREVER, not to hide it. Certainly not for a pirate to recover later. And why so deep, anyway? And without modern equipment, wouldn't you have dug a large pit, like having to remove half the field to go that deep, rather than a small bore hole like structure?

No part of the story really passes the smell test, and aside from the rumors, there doesn't appear to be anything that backs them up that isn't easily explainable as natural. Seems like sinkholes to me, which explains the wood at random depths. Everything else is more an artifact of 200 years of treasure hunters, not treasure. Oh, and it floods a lot. Which if it's a problem for them with machines and pumps, imagine how much fun it was for a guy in the 1400s with a shovel in a 100' hole!

Even if everything they've said is 100% true, what they're doing is horrible. And certainly likely to destroy whatever they are looking for. Maybe they found the Ark, but the way they're looking is by randomly popping a drill down a hole, so first indication would be bits of Ark on a drill bit. Makes Indiana Jones look like the perfect example of forensic archeology. Know it's being done for cash vice science, but hoping they never find anything important, because it would be destroyed and worthless, plus we'd lose any info attached to the find.

At least things like the Alaska gold mining shows aren't trying to tie history and science to their efforts. Blow up mountains, dig holes, try to find gold nuggets. No risk of destroying the Holy Grail out there. Not that I think it exists, but hey, it won't be in a river in Alaska.

The Oak Island thing is either a hoax or a crime against history. Hoping for the former.
 
Scout101, your concerns of treasure vs. no-treasure on Oak Island are well thought out and valid. Any mystery, historical or otherwise, needs to be examined from all angles to see if the surrounding theory holds up or not. Though I personally believe that there is treasure on Oak Island and I have my own theory as to who placed it there (and why) I also accept the fact that there are reasons to doubt that notion.

Let's examine for a moment if it's possible. In 1795, McGinnis, Vaughn and Smith managed to dig down to a depth of 30 on their own, just with the use of shovels and picks. and buckets to haul up the loose dirt. Nine years later, the Onslow Company reached a depth of 98 feet (before the water problems began), using what by our standards today would be very primitive equipment. So, is it possible that in say, 1575 or there abouts, could the original perpetrators of the Money Pit have dug that deep or further and then performed lateral tunneling to create the flood traps? I do believe that it's possible. Tin mining under the ocean has been going on in Cornwall, England for well over a century; the Crown mines have been in operation since the 1860s. The Spanish developed extensive mining techniques hundreds of years ago, so again, such a deep and extensive excavation could be done, using the technology that was available four to five centuries ago. It would just be a lot harder and take a considerably longer period of time to perform.

As to what might have been buried... My own feeling is that there was an intent to be able to retrieved it at a later time, but this is just speculation on my part. As to whether it was placed there by the Templars, while it's possible, I don't believe it to be the case. I think the folks at Prometheus Productions like to make a case for it being the Templars and the whole romantic notion of it being either the Grail or the Ark of the Covenant, and while I believe that the Templars may have come to Nova Scotia, I'm not certain it was to bury what would have already been legendary artifacts. I think that SInclair's expedition in 1398 did occur, but I'm less positive that he made landfall on Oak Island.

To address your earlier concern about there not being an endgame here, I do feel that as far as the Laginas and their business partners are concerned, there has to be one. In the decade or so since Rick and Marty purchased David Tobias' lots on the island, Marty, Craig Tester and Alan Kostrzewa have invested a lot of funding into this venture, for it to not pay off at some point. They truly have a vested interest in seeing this mystery solved, whether there is a treasure of intrinsic value there or not. Or if something is buried there, but one that is more historical in value (such as Baconian documents).

Remember: what we're seeing is what the History Channel is letting us see. As with anything, there's always more to it than what meets the eye.

BTW, if you don't mind my asking out of curiosity, how and when did you first learn of Oak Island and what about it initially sparked your interest in it?
 
Problem is, if I recall my chemistry correctly, there is only one molecule’s worth of difference between lead and gold. This was one of the primary reasons why many people thought alchemy was possible. The mass would be negligible without some super-sensitive instruments to derive what the mass of the cross should be, based on established surface area and what it actually is.


Good point. And of course, any attempt to even gently scrape away at the surface of the cross to try to see if another alloy lays underneath just simply then ruins its integrity. Still, I'd love to know if Kathleen McGowan's theory applies to Rick and Gary's find.

And I must say that listening to Kathleen in the preview segment, she came across sounding far more intelligent and knowledgeable than Zena Halpern. Although I'm not sold on the idea that the Templars are the ones who buried something on Oak Island, I do believe the finding of the Smith's Cove cross certainly bolsters the theory of a Templar presence in North America, much as the engraving known as the 'Westford Knight' supports the notion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westford_Knight
 
Heard about it on tv originally, then a bit of googling.

If you were burying something in the 1300s with the intent of retrieving it, why would you use the massive effort it would take to bury it 100+ feet deep, plus dig side traps? Seems nuts. Especially on an out of the way, seldom frequented island. Wouldn’t 20-30’ be more than sufficient, and doable? If you’re retrieving it, gotta dig it twice, plus defeat the traps the second time. Doesn’t make much sense.

It’s gotta be a natural sinkhole, and is just littered with artifacts from previous hunts at this point. They’re making their money with the tv show at this point, no show if you don’t pretend to dig a little. Second they stop, investment is useless. No tours, no show, no money. They have incentive to keep up the charade.
 
The problem with it being a natural sinkhole is that it doesn't explain the platform of logs fitted into the sides of the shaft at ten foot intervals, with settled earth underneath each layer. The records of the Onslow Company, unless they are completely fake, substantiate these finds, as well as the inscribed stone found at 90 feet. That alone indicates that the shaft is man-made, along with wood that has been brought up that has been car bon-dated to the mid-sixteenth century. Not to mention the bone-fragments from the same period of time, from two different individuals. I just can't equate this in my mind with it being just a natural sinkhole that everyone for over two centuries has mistaken for man-made works.

As for the depth, I'll admit there's no easy answer to that one. It is one of the reasons why I don't believe it's the result of a pirate crew dumping of their ill-gotten gains. As you say, if it's meant for retrieval at a later point, it doesn't seem to make sense to bury it so deep. But just because we think that way today doesn't mean that people several centuries ago might've felt that whatever they were hiding warranted using such extremes.
 
They didn't want the "wrong" people digging it up. Unfortunately the "right" people are probably all dead by now.
 
^I haven't watched it religiously. Were the 'platforms' obviously shaped, manufactured structures (maybe with nails), or any chance they could be the result of blow-downs from trees? Literally 'trees falling down into a sinkhole" would also create a 'platform of logs' which would get sucked lower over time, have another blow-down toss more trees in, etc. Unless it was obviously shaped, constructed platform (planks vice logs, IMO, or obvious visible means of connecting the logs together somehow), I'd dismiss that as natural occurrence. Haven't they also seen this in other sinkholes on the island? I'd believe there were layers of trees/logs, but maybe not that it was exactly every 10 feet, too. People see patterns they want to see, and nothing about this dig, over 200+ years of work, has been careful or scientific.

Guess I don't put much stock into the 200 year old records, as those come and go, and could have just as easily been exaggerating their finds to get more funding. Kinda like if you read what Columbus wrote and assume he found the gold, and start looking around the islands. Made it up.

Same deal with the story of the rock. No one can FIND the rock, and if it was the material described, it would be damned hard to inscribe anything onto said rock. Yeah, urban legend says it was around for a while, but how reliable is that? And if it was all real, and treasure was supposed to be 10 feet lower than 90 feet, why are they in the mid-100s and still nada?

Why are they attributing this hole as manmade, but ignoring that there are dozens more around the island that look very similar, some with wood in them as well?

The 'traps' sound a lot like just water table and porous rocky material up north, not seeing that being manmade either. Imagine not only digging down 100+ feet by hand, but then digging a bunch of side tunnels to water sources as well. All by hand, in that kind of material (that's GOING to collapse), no scuba equipment to provide air while messing with the water filled tunnels while 100' below ground, etc.

Nothing really passes the smell test for me. I can't put my mind in the mindset of someone deciding that doing all of this made any sense. easier ways to bury treasure, ways that leave it hidden but retrievable.
 
Coconut fiber was found and dated between the 12th and 14th centuries. Whether that date is verifiable or not, coconut trees do not grow anywhere near Oak Island. The show is entertaining enough. It's sort of like a bull in the china shop archaeological dig. If they ever discover anything of worth, it will be destroyed for the most part. They have dug up human bone pieces, pieces of parchment and leather bookbindings so far. All fragile items and in pieces.
 
That’s the most frustrating part; if by any tiny chance they aren’t full of shit, they’re doing such a terrible job at archeology that they are going to destroy whatever was so intricately hidden. It’s either a hoax or a crime, not really any other outcome unfortunately
 
It would just be a crime against humanity if anything was actually in the hole. "so, we found a bunch of gold bits, couple jewels, and one of those eagle-looking things that kinda looks like it was from Raiders of the Lost....oh shit...."

I mean, they'd get the value of gold and jewels, but wouldn't any actual artifact be so far beyond that as to be priceless?

They're selling us on buried treasure and historical artifacts, and then going about the hunt like it's just generic gold nuggets. Again, think the whole thing is a fool's errand, but in the 0.0000001% chance there was some truth to what they think, the world would hang them if they came up with mangled pieces of a religious relic.
 
i agree that it's incongruous how one minute, the show covers permit issues and the need for precise, archaeological oversight then the next, they're shown ramming a friggin' huge steel beam down on top of the obstruction, without even knowing what the bloody hell it is.

Honestly, I blame the production company for this, for the way the show is pieced together, but it does beg the question of why Laird Niven isn't on hand at the DMT site, where potentially important artifacts may in fact, be retrieved. Scout101 is absolutely right about being concerned over the treatment and condition of said artifacts. While the two of us may have differing views about the authenticity and accuracy of the old records, specifically those of the Onslow Company, we both share the concern that if something is down there, that it is handled properly. If it's documents contained within the Chappel Vault, then likely they have been ruined by water. OTOH, solid artifacts, metal and precious stones, will fare better but the fact is that the vault (assuming it exists and I believe that it does), has been compromised by drilling, beginning in 1897.

One of the things that really irks me is that in the entirety of this season, not once have they mentioned any analysis work being down on those larges pieces of metal that were brought up out of the GAL-1 shaft in last season's finale (which in reality, said pieces of metal were brought to the surface in late 2016). Once again, the History Channel made a big production of this find, yet no conclusions or theories about what it was, or how the hell it got down there was ever mentioned.

A final thought: bare in mind folks, it is easy for us to criticize what we see on show, because we're not always seeing the whole picture. And while it may be frustrating for us as viewers to see no real progress being made, it has to be more so for the Lagina brothers and their team.
 
Despite the fact I've been told that the Laginas were not successful this past year in retrieving the treasure, I'm still eager to see what else of interest was brought up before they ceased operations in the fall. My gut tells me that some further form of evidence was found to bolster the notion of them attempting an even larger excavation this coming year - a huge hole on the lines of Triton's planned 'Big Dig' for the late 80s, but abandoned due to lack of funding at the time.
 
I'm certain that that's what they'll make it look like to continue the show for next year. Just ambiguous enough to end on the cliffhanger of "huge new dig coming, we're THIS close!"
 
I'm not really sure why this has been a 200 year project, especially if all the claims rest on the idea of a small number of people burying treasure X in a reasonable amount of time. How hard would it be to dig a larger, wider hole that would answer the question definitively?

Depending on which treasure you think is down there, wouldn't it have been a small number of people with 300-800 year old hand tools and tech? You've got more people, and machines, dig the damned hole and stop dicking around! :)
 
The biggest question of treasure hunting (on land) is where to dig. They don't know exactly where the "treasure" is, previous searchers have left a big mess, so they are making their decisions on what history of the earlier attempts they can put together. It's amazing they have found anything at all. One of the most recent holes they drilled destroyed the teeth on the drill. Sometimes big machines can only do so much.
Possibly any treasure is long gone if it was ever there.
 
They've honestly had more luck finding valuable artifacts searching close to the surface with a shovel and metal detector than they ever have digging deep.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top