The Clone Wars: good clones vs. bad droids?

[Gaith]

Yeah, I should have noted that I didn't come up with that idea.

 

[Thestral]

The Clone Wars setting is already not simply "good clones vs. bad droids" even in the movies. Or did you forget the Geonosians and Nemoidians for the Separatists, and the Wookies for the Republic?

 

[Mr Light]

Palpatine being a cloned puppet of Sidious was actually a very popular theory right up to the release of ROTS, since they explicitly never said the two were the same before that point.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Here's an idea of a surprise that could have worked: Palpatine's actually a decent and conscientious but helpless guy, forced by mind-control to play along with the schemes of his "original", Sidious, who cloned him as a Force-less puppet. And the galaxy would never have to know; Mace Windu could find out, for example, only to be killed moments later. Voila - a suprise that (gasp) doesn't force the rewriting/selective ignoring of the OT.

Anyway, I'm pleased to see that only a quarter of voters favor GL's lame-ass Clone Wars formulation.

You're a ... a ... a cloner?

Sorry, but your post gave me flashbacks to 2004 when "cloner" debates raged about this very idea. Talk about heated debate! One thing's for certain: If this had happened, it'd have been one hell of a shock to the vast majority of Star Wars fans (or, at least those that posted on message boards at the time).

I will say this, though, the idea has some merit in that a)it grounds the "clone" wars directly in clone technology and b) if I remember correctly, according to Lucas circa the OT, Palpatine was originally supposed to be an ineffectual figurehead. This idea would have been consistent with both concepts.

 

[Silvercrest]

if I remember correctly, according to Lucas circa the OT, Palpatine was originally supposed to be an ineffectual figurehead

Ah, that's right. The original "Star Wars" novel stated that.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Clone Wars setting is already not simply "good clones vs. bad droids" even in the movies. Or did you forget the Geonosians and Nemoidians for the Separatists, and the Wookies for the Republic?

I just got to the Geonosians episode and that probably added to the episode being very effective. I also noticed that the scene where Anakin and Ahsoka plow thru some Geonosians is very brief, but it does show that the producers aren't scared to depict Jedi killing flesh & blood opponents.

It does make me wonder what motivates the various worlds who side with the Seperatists, but whatever. I'm sure they all have their agendas and for some, the Republic really isn't doing what they want it to do. Or the honchos running this or that world have total control over the local propaganda apparatus and have everyone bamboozled. Or, as seems to be the case with the Geonosians, they have a hive-mind type situation that makes them much less free-thinking than for other species. Would a hive-mind species even value liberal democracy?

 

[Gaith]

The Clone Wars setting is already not simply "good clones vs. bad droids" even in the movies. Or did you forget the Geonosians and Nemoidians for the Separatists, and the Wookies for the Republic?

Minor footnotes, those are. "Good clones vs. bad droids", the vast majority of the conflict is. Impressed, I am not.

 

[Thestral]

^ Chewbacca disagrees. Are you going to argue with Chewbacca?

The Clone Wars setting is already not simply "good clones vs. bad droids" even in the movies. Or did you forget the Geonosians and Nemoidians for the Separatists, and the Wookies for the Republic?

I just got to the Geonosians episode and that probably added to the episode being very effective.

I've actually not seen more than one or two episodes of either cartoon; I was going by their appearances in the movies, brief though they be.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Clone Wars is where I really notice the deadening effect of having interchangeable clones fighting interchangeable droids, but also some innovations that help improve the situation as much as possible, given the restrictions of the premise:

-Attempts to give the clones some semblance of individuality and write stories with them as central characters.

-Variety of droid types, including (not sure what this type is called), the "boss droid" type, the ones with the narrow eyes and kind of a beaky nose (?) that have a happy/sinister look to them and a creepy/calm voice. They seem to be capable of independent thought and moral choice, and therefore are equivalent to flesh & blood.

-Any time a flesh & blood species is shown taking part in the Separatist fight.

 

[Whofan]

Palpatine does get cloned in the Dark Empire comics (Hard to believe those are nearly twenty!). However, the clones have the same mind as the original (Apparentally his spirit survived ROTJ and transferred to one of the clones). The comics were also the first to depict Palpatine with a lightsaber, long before ROTJ.


I think one of the Zahn novels however slightly retconned the Palpatine clones, saying they were in fact imposters or something like that.

 

[Gaith]

I also noticed that the scene where Anakin and Ahsoka plow thru some Geonosians is very brief, but it does show that the producers aren't scared to depict Jedi killing flesh & blood opponents.

If they're not scared, why then is the scene "very brief"?

Variety of droid types, including (not sure what this type is called), the "boss droid" type, the ones with the narrow eyes and kind of a beaky nose (?) that have a happy/sinister look to them and a creepy/calm voice. They seem to be capable of independent thought and moral choice, and therefore are equivalent to flesh & blood.

Are they born with a random and unique set of genes? Do they take decades to mature from childhood to full maturity? Do they experience emotion; can they reproduce? Do they have any purpose or thought not related to war?


@ Kestrel: The Wookies were protecting their home planet from an invasion... which is just a wee different than being the dominant fighting force across a galaxy of conflict.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I also noticed that the scene where Anakin and Ahsoka plow thru some Geonosians is very brief, but it does show that the producers aren't scared to depict Jedi killing flesh & blood opponents.

If they're not scared, why then is the scene "very brief"?

Okay, they're still a bit chickenshit. I'm hoping for more such depictions to come.

Variety of droid types, including (not sure what this type is called), the "boss droid" type, the ones with the narrow eyes and kind of a beaky nose (?) that have a happy/sinister look to them and a creepy/calm voice. They seem to be capable of independent thought and moral choice, and therefore are equivalent to flesh & blood.

Are they born with a random and unique set of genes? Do they take decades to mature from childhood to full maturity? Do they experience emotion; can they reproduce? Do they have any purpose or thought not related to war?

I'm talking mainly about how I react as a viewer to the characters. Animated droids are no more or less real than animated critters who looked like evolved bugs or even humans - whether they are "real" depends on how they are written, depicted and voice-acted.

A character who can speak (humans, droids) is more "real" than characters who spout gibberish (Geonosians, Wookies). A character who is written to show some individuality and personality (some droids, humans, Wookies) are more "real" than characters who seem like automotons (other droids, and frankly the Geonosians don't strike me as very individualistic so far).

But the biggest factor is whether a character is singled out from the pack and developed into a unique character who has some significance to the story. Take an interchangeable battle droid, name him Fred, and have him participate in storylines. Let's say, he's the only Separatist droid ever to defect to the Republic (somehow developing independent will that counteracts his programming). Fred is now far more "real" than any given background flesh and blood character who has a walk-on part. If he is used on a recurring basis, he could be as important as recurring characters like Luminara and Cad Bane. And when & if he dies, that will take a unique and irreplacible character out of the story, so it's a significant thing for the writers to do and a far bigger step than slaughtering a billion battle droids that look just like Fred.

So it's a combination of qualities. Artoo and Threepio are equivalent in "realness" despite Artoo being limited to beeps and chirps because both show a lot of personality and most crucially, both are developed as unique and important characters. The more the show is willing to depict the good guys killing "real" characters, the more credit for guts I will give them and the further away they will get from my grumpy suspicion that "this show is just for kids."

 

[Set Harth]

I think one of the Zahn novels however slightly retconned the Palpatine clones, saying they were in fact imposters or something like that.

I think you mean when Mara said she wasn't convinced the clone was really him. That can be taken either way; it's just Mara's opinion, so it doesn't necessarily change anything. It might be Zahn trying to retcon DE to some extent, but it need not be taken as gospel.

From there it would not be a big leap to finger Palpatine as the person who gains the most by this whole thing. It might even be possible to avoid the war. The only reason the characters don't make this conclusion is because they're idiots.

So, in other words, if George Bush had turned out to be a member of Al Qaeda, you would have accurately predicted it? I hope so, because the other path leads straight to being dubbed an "idiot". Hindsight is always 20-20. Without knowing the crucial fact Palpatine = Sidious, the Jedi have no reason to connect Palpatine to any of it. From the POV of the Jedi at the time of AOTC, the very idea is counterintuitive nearly to the point of absurdity, as is the related idea of Dooku creating an army to oppose his own forces.

Was he evil to begin with?

Unlikely, given the dialogue in the OT, with specific emphasis on ROTJ.

The midichlorians are too much Trekkian technbabble.

The term "midichlorians" describes something which was established by the OT: biologically inherited Force sensitivity. It's different from technobabble because it's not intended to be incomprehensible.

 

[Silvercrest]

So, in other words, if George Bush had turned out to be a member of Al Qaeda, you would have accurately predicted it?

Of course! It was obvious the whole time!

I hope so, because the other path leads straight to being dubbed an "idiot".

Naah, but the characters just follow the demands of the plot, which is lazy writing. Either they overlook very obvious crucial information that would have clued them in, or, more often, they never even have a chance to figure it out at all (as I believe Temis said). They aren't supposed to be idiots, but they're required to be either unobservant or gullible in order for the plot to work.

Hindsight is always 20-20. Without knowing the crucial fact Palpatine = Sidious, the Jedi have no reason to connect Palpatine to any of it. From the POV of the Jedi at the time of AOTC, the very idea is counterintuitive nearly to the point of absurdity, as is the related idea of Dooku creating an army to oppose his own forces.

That would have been true except for Jango's presence on both sides of the conflict, or more specifically, tied to key figures on both sides of the conflict. It was something that should have clued the characters in, except I don't think it was dropped as an intentional clue. It would have been better if Jango hadn't gone to Geonosis.

 

[Set Harth]

Since the Jedi don't know that Dooku is Tyranus, and since Jango is a mercenary who could easily have sold his services separately to both Dooku and Kamino, the situation is not so clear-cut, and Palpatine is still not implicated.