I like both acts, but that surprises me-- it seems to me that the Monkees have at least equal, if not greater, staying power than Sonny & Cher.
The Classic/Retro Pop Culture Thread
- Thread starter The Old Mixer
- Start date
In Pryor's own recollections, both SNL and years before that--The Flip Wilson Show--did not allow him to take advantage of the very reason they had him on the show. This was not about Standards and Practices regulations, either, as Pryor was aware he was not going to be as blue as his stage act, but he was so sidelined at SNL, that he was just there for the most part. If not for a word-association/interview skit with Chevy Chase written by Pryor's now-scandal-embroiled ex-writer Paul Mooney, all of his appearances would have been as sidelined by a very different idea of humor from Michaels, et al.
That's the point--Sonny and Cher's TV series failed to cut a deep path in pop culture history because they were modelled after a decades-old style of "humor" so it was not exactly innovative. Musically? Eh.
That comes from a long stated bias from one of those making decisions on the HoF's nomination process--Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner.. He has made one inaccurate rant after another about the group, and has been rightfully criticized for his hatred of them. The Monkees are not the only classic band that's not in the HoF (along with numerous, valid accusations of corruption, ignoring thousands of fan petitions, etc.), but they are arguably the most glaring omission of all. Back in 2007, the late Peter Tork did not hold back on the BS from Wenner in a New York Post interview, which was reposted in this Page Six report: Monkee Lashes Out at Wenner.
They do. Musically and on a popular culture level, there's no comparison. For a few examples, Sonny and Cher was not an act inspiring revival concerts that rivalled those of the then-current generation of artists (as the case of the Monkees in 1986-87), nor was there a period where Sonny and Cher's entire album catalog were re-released, with many re-charting high on Billboard, which happened with Monkees' reissues. That's not even getting into the appeal and impact of the TV series over the decades, which no one is saying about Sonny and Cher's show.
55 Years Ago This Week
Selections from Billboard's Hot 100 for the week:
Leaving the chart:
New on the chart:
"Walking in the Rain," The Ronettes
(#23 US; #3 R&B; #266 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)
"Reach Out for Me," Dionne Warwick
(#20 US; #1 R&B; #23 UK)
"Everything's Alright," The Newbeats
(#16 US)
"I'm Gonna Be Strong," Gene Pitney
(#9 US; #2 UK)
Total Beatles songs on the chart: 1
And new on the boob tube:
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55th Anniversary Fly-on-the-Wall Listening
On October 18, 1964, the Beatles for Sale sessions have the Fabs working on a combined cover of Leiber & Stoller and Little Richard:
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Wiki said:
Selections from Billboard's Hot 100 for the week:
Leaving the chart:
- "Haunted House," Jumpin' Gene Simmons (11 weeks)
- "The House of the Rising Sun," The Animals (11 weeks)
- "Out of Sight," James Brown & His Orchestra (10 weeks)
- "Save It for Me," The Four Seasons (8 weeks)
- "Slow Down," The Beatles (7 weeks)
New on the chart:
"Walking in the Rain," The Ronettes
(#23 US; #3 R&B; #266 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)
"Reach Out for Me," Dionne Warwick
(#20 US; #1 R&B; #23 UK)
"Everything's Alright," The Newbeats
(#16 US)
"I'm Gonna Be Strong," Gene Pitney
(#9 US; #2 UK)
Total Beatles songs on the chart: 1
And new on the boob tube:
- 12 O'Clock High, "The Climate of Doubt"
_______
55th Anniversary Fly-on-the-Wall Listening
On October 18, 1964, the Beatles for Sale sessions have the Fabs working on a combined cover of Leiber & Stoller and Little Richard:
_______
An act having staying power isn't necessarily getting a song on the list. There are lots of acts who had staying power who aren't represented and who probably would be, based on whatever criteria the contributors were using (largely influence, I imagine, and/or epitomizing a particular style), before the Monkees.
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There we go. That's the good stuff.
This is nice, but not her most memorable work.
The band has a nice sound, but the song is kind of disposable.
Meh.
I guess. It's certainly not the first time that list has baffled me.
50 Years Ago This Week
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_is_dead
https://www.beatlesbible.com/features/paul-is-dead/
The Old Mixer is the size of a leek...his brain is gettin' groovy...and he has two weeks to go!
Selections from Billboard's Hot 100 for the week:
Leaving the chart:
New on the chart...another week that's not exactly slow:
"Jingo," Santana
(#56 US)
"Evil Woman, Don't Play Your Games with Me," Crow
(#19 US)
"Friendship Train," Gladys Knight & The Pips
(#17 US; #2 R&B)
"These Eyes," Jr. Walker & The All Stars
(#16 US; #3 R&B)
"Eli's Coming," Three Dog Night
(#10 US)
"Down on the Corner," Creedence Clearwater Revival
(#3 US as double A-side w/ "Fortunate Son"; #31 UK)
"Fortunate Son", Creedence Clearwater Revival
(Double A-side w/ "Down on the Corner"; will also be charting separately next week; #99 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)
"Leaving on a Jet Plane," Peter, Paul & Mary
(#1 US the week of Dec. 20, 1969; #1 AC; #2 UK)
And new on the boob tube:
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Mostly a pretty slow week in this era...too many obscuros.
Coming Soonish to an Album Spotlight near you!Wiki said:
Lewisohn's book actually had this mislisted under April 24!Mark Lewisohn's The Beatles Day by Day said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_is_dead
https://www.beatlesbible.com/features/paul-is-dead/
The Old Mixer is the size of a leek...his brain is gettin' groovy...and he has two weeks to go!
Selections from Billboard's Hot 100 for the week:
Leaving the chart:
- "Get Together," The Youngbloods (17 weeks this run; 25 weeks total)
- "Hurt So Bad," The Lettermen (21 weeks)
- "Your Good Thing (Is About to End)," Lou Rawls (14 weeks)
New on the chart...another week that's not exactly slow:
"Jingo," Santana
(#56 US)
"Evil Woman, Don't Play Your Games with Me," Crow
(#19 US)
"Friendship Train," Gladys Knight & The Pips
(#17 US; #2 R&B)
"These Eyes," Jr. Walker & The All Stars
(#16 US; #3 R&B)
"Eli's Coming," Three Dog Night
(#10 US)
"Down on the Corner," Creedence Clearwater Revival
(#3 US as double A-side w/ "Fortunate Son"; #31 UK)
"Fortunate Son", Creedence Clearwater Revival
(Double A-side w/ "Down on the Corner"; will also be charting separately next week; #99 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)
"Leaving on a Jet Plane," Peter, Paul & Mary
(#1 US the week of Dec. 20, 1969; #1 AC; #2 UK)
And new on the boob tube:
- Mission: Impossible, "The Controller: Part 2"
- Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, Season 3, episode 6
- The Mod Squad, "To Linc – with Love"
- That Girl, "Hearing Today, Gone Tomorrow"
- Ironside, "Love My Enemy"
- Get Smart, "The Treasure of C. Errol Madre"
- Hogan's Heroes, "Unfair Exchange"
_______
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Mostly a pretty slow week in this era...too many obscuros.
I think the list works better if one looks at was is there rather than what isn't. Arranged chronologically, the first few decades' worth of material makes for a great history of the rock & roll era.
Oh okay, I was aware of Richard's complaints about network shows. He always talked about the lack of freedom he was afforded and this included his own short lived, but brilliant, comedy hour.
But I never considered SNL writing "stagey' like the other variety shows back then which includes Laugh In and S&C. SNL had the most subversive writing network TV had ever seen. It had the elements of a traditional American old style variety show, but updated to reflect 70's/80's counter culture cool.
But I always suspected Lorne Michaels just never had much of a feel for black comedic talent. Why else would he have hired Garrett Morris, a decent enough actor but a minor comedic talent. Lorne finally lucked into Eddie Murphy who was up there with Akroyd, Belushi, Radnor, and Murray in terms of performing talent, but who Lorne hired as a "featured" player. Joe Piscapo was hired as a full cast member, while Murphy, who was a revelatory comedic talent, was hired as a "featured player".
So, no surprise that Pryor's appearances could have been better, but I don't think it was because of showy typical variety show writing.
S&C certainly wasn't innovative, but it had a certain amount of old fashioned charm and glamour. You really can't compare it to The Monkees TV show, which was a sitcom with a heavier then usual emphasis on pop music.
If Jann Wenner has said about the Monkees in response to a question about their possible entry into the HoF, that they don't belong because they are musically irrelevant, is that a "rant"? To a fan that might sound like a biassed rant, but to me it just sounds like simple facts. I'd love to read some of those rants if you have a link.
I read the article and to me it came across as a self serving "rant" by a guy who may equate people still knowing his name and continued relative popularity of the TV show with musical relevance and importance. I don't believe for one second that the Monkees ever had enough votes to enter the Hall. Tork's belief that the reason the Monkees have not been inducted is because they didn't play their own instruments is delusional. Everyone knows that there are plenty of bands who never played on their own albums and singles have been inducted.
This had more to do with the fact that S&C were a divorced couple who carried much more baggage than the cast of the Monkees. Their re-teaming to tour presented problems the Monkees didn't have. Cher started a very successful solo career and Sonny went into politics. I have no doubt that S&C, had they chosen, could have had a robust "revival" career on the concert circuit.
And why not tour? I don't think the Monkees were doing anything else, were they?
I'd have to double check the accuracy of your comment on the catalogue. Did the Monkees as a group or solo ever have a significant hit after the show left the air on a scale that Cher had in the 80's? I don't think so. I don't think the Monkees had one single hit after the show left the air that could be called "iconic". Cher had a string of them.
You might have a more logical argument that the Monkees TV show should be inducted rather than the Monkees as a "band", which they were not. But what might be hurting the show in that regard is the knowledge that the show is just a knock off of the Beatles in A Hard Days Night. But still, the show was the first of it's kind so perhaps the TV branch of the Academy is a better group to handle any honors the show is given.
From leek to full-blown whistleblower!
It's got words, it's Santana, it's good.
I don't think I ever heard this before. It's okay.
This is nice.
Not the familiar version, but still pretty good.
I love Three Dog Night. This isn't their most famous song, but it's good.
I absolutely love this song. There are certain songs that really take me back to the days we lived in Dorchester and this is one of them.
Not a bad song, but I'm troubled by it because it validates Right-Wing faux patriotism.
This is a great song no matter who does it, but this was the first version I ever heard, on that "Best Of" 8-Track that I used to play endlessly (alongside Simon & Garfunkel and Jesus Christ, Superstar).
It does do that.
Yes--TV was never going to allow the man to take full advantage of his considerable talents, instead they wanted to water it down, and expect the same results.
I think finding a true black comedic talent (in the early 1970s, there was no shortage of them) was not his concern or interest. That's why he would hire someone as out of his element as Morris to stand alongside that early cast?
Joe Piscapo was hired as a full cast member, while Murphy, who was a revelatory comedic talent, was hired as a "featured player".
It says much about the ever-so-progressive Michaels (and others). In fact, there seems to be connective strains of certain SNL creators being out of touch (arguably in a deliberate manner); one of his key writers--Anne Beatts--was once hired as a producer during the 1st season of The Cosby Show spinoff A Different World, but complained about the contribution of consultant Dr. Alvin Poussaint (who is black) who worked on both series to ensure positive insight/portrayals of black characters--particularly one about a black university. Poussaint was a valuable resource, yet Beatts was less than respectful about his influence, when positive images/messages of black characters had been priority number one since the parent series launched three years prior to ADW's debut. Who would have a problem with that, as it did not hinder the creative process (and none of the cast or crew ever echoed her complaints, either).
The second Pryor was back on stage, everyone saw the galaxy-wide difference in not only how he delivered, but what was covered. SNL was never going to let Pryor be...Pryor. Eddie Murphy said much of the same thing, and although he fought to establish himself (when people like Piscopo were heavily hyped as the next SNL "star"), vowing he was not going to be "another Garrett Morris", it was not until he made the move to movies and his newer form of unconstrained stand-up that the world knew the real Murphy talent.
Someone tried to denigrate the Monkees for not "adapting" to the stagey projections of Laugh-In's writing, using S&C as a contrast. Any objective viewing of both shows illustrates who had a better command of humor, improvisational skill and
He has said more than that, and all of it unjustified.
Read it again--and if you care to, other articles criticizing the HoF, Wenner's bias (which was not limited to The Monkees), which calls its value into question.
Internally, The Monkees were as contentious an act as say, Chicago--where infighting over musical direction, who gets how many tracks, etc. happened with some regularity. That's not an easy thing to get over (just ask Peter Cetera about his estrangement from Chicago), but they had to overcome that.
Based on what? They never had a deep catalog, and after knowing about their soiled, old relationship, I doubt anyone would've paid to see them take a trip down that abusive memory lane. Further, contrary to what some believe, many revival acts--some with far more hits than Sonny & Cher ever had--struggled, so it makes one wonder if there would have been any interest or chance for success at all. Only a select few ever return to major success.
I'm comparing the two acts--Sonny & Cher vs.The Monkees, and by any measure, the former was not in the same league as a recording act, and their TV show was-as you point out--not innovative. It was more of the same jokes recycled on one variety show after another. The only curiosity about it was public knowledge of their nasty private life, which was the equivalent of watching a car wreck in progress.
The S&C show has been rerun in different markets over the years, but it never spawned the mass interest (if much of any at all) like The Monkees. The February 1986 MTV marathon ("Pleasant Valley Sunday") was a phenomenal hit, with Tom Freston--MTV's then-general manager saying (to Rolling Stone) in September of 1986:
Historical context matters, as this was the omnipresent MTV that had already made an irreversible impact on music and pop culture, with regular helpings of some of music history's biggest acts, yet reruns of a then 20-year old show took the channel by storm. Generational bias existed then as it has in every decade, but the typically teen-to-college age MTV audiences loved it.
Moreover, on the music end, reunion-era songs, such as 1986's "That Was Then, This Is Now" reached #20 on Billboard, while one of the most recent albums, 2016's Good Times entered Billboard at #14 and climbed to #6. That's no accident, much like their 20th anniversary reunion concert was a consistently sold out affair for seven straight months --and think of the other acts touring that year. It cannot be underestimated
_______
50th Anniversary Viewing (Part 1)
_______
The Ed Sullivan Show
Season 22, episode 3
Originally aired October 12, 1969
As represented in The Best of the Ed Sullivan Show
Also in the original episode according to tv.com:
_______
Mission: Impossible
"The Controller: Part 1"
Originally aired October 12, 1969
Dr. Karl Turek (David Sheiner) has been developing a mind control drug called B-230, which currently has the side effect of causing catatonia. Attempting to stop him before he perfects it, Jim and Meredyth take the place of a couple of defecting American scientists, Dr. Arthur Jarvis and wife, Vera--who conveniently have just had plastic surgery, such that the bad guys don't know what they now look like. There's some existing tension between Turek and the military officer overseeing the project, Colonel Borodin (Alfred Ryder), so the Fake Jarvises are playing that up by claiming to have developed a superior new mind control drug, Voliticon.
Early beats in the mission include Paris in the role of Major Deva and Willy doing some document placement and punch card forgery. Later, Willy assumes the role of a prisoner being used as a test subject, Koenig. Other test subjects include a young couple, Martyn and Katherine (future TNG Season 1 guests Stanley Kamel--billed as Jonathan Brooks--and Brooke Bundy). To prove Voliticon's effectiveness, Turek has Dr. Jim order Guinea Willy to commit suicide, but Jim openly reveals afterward that he'd slipped the clip out of the gun first. There's some genuine tension here because Willy doesn't know this, but reluctantly trusts Jim when he firmly orders him to pull the trigger.
Barney does a lot of the usual sneaking around, which includes getting in a ventilation shaft from which he switches out circuit boards in the lab computer to make it more Voliticon-friendly; and later lowering Willy some equipment from his cell's swank skylight.
Turek and Fake Mrs. Jarvis conspire to use Voliticon to take Dr. Jim out of the picture. Under the fake influence, Jim fake shoots Borodin and is ordered to go drive off a cliff. Meanwhile, the young couple make a break for it and Martyn is real shot. The episode cliffhangs with Jim being fired on by guards while trying to drive out of the complex.
There's lots of Gellerese in this one, and it's been a while since I've seen such a giggle-worthy example:
_______
Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In
Season 3, episode 5
Originally aired October 13, 1969
An opening musical number about exercise:
Jack E. Leonard does a bit of a standup routine as the intro to Dan and Dick.
General Bull Wright on war being healthy to the economy:
There's a news segment skit of Columbus's discovery of America being covered by the media like the Moon landing. Leonard plays Columbus.
Apparently there was a short-lived game show-format daily spinoff program Letters to Laugh-In, hosted by Gary Owens...they've been plugging it this season.
This week's cocktail party:
The Fickle Finger of Fate goes to the American Independence Party:
Laugh-In takes a look at hospitals, but I couldn't find a clip.
Mitzi Gaynor plugs her show that's on later. She doesn't seem to have had a regular series on after Laugh-In (that was NBC Monday Night at the Movies this season), so it was possibly a special.
Lana Wood is referenced several times before briefly popping up at the end of the Joke Wall, followed by also popping up in the closing German soldier bit.
_______
The Mod Squad
"Ride the Man Down"
Originally aired October 14, 1969
My gappy Decades recordings are picking up with the fourth episode of the show's second season.
The teaser has a girl named Diane Halloway (Brenda Scott) reluctantly drugging Pete's drink at the behest of her brother, Arthur (Richard Forbes). We later learn that she lured Pete in with a story about trouble involving a missing brother who was also supposedly drugged and abducted. While Diane is taking instructions from Arthur on the phone, Pete has a conversation with a waitress named Judy (Lynn Borden), who used to work in narco squad and played a role in the arrest that led to Pete being recruited by Greer. As the conversation ends, the drug starts to take effect, and Pete and Diane catch a ride in a cab driven by Arthur.
Pete platonically shares a hotel room with Diane and they go riding the next day. He loses track of her to find that she seems to have fallen into a ravine. It's during the ensuing investigation by the local authorities that Greer and the other Mods make the scene, and it looks bad for Pete when a knife wound is found in the body. This situation is exacerbated by the presence of D.A. Tom Cole (Richard Anderson), who has a bad history with Pete also going back to Pete's arrest. The body in the ravine turns out to be Judy's, and Cole assumes that Pete had it in for her because she'd testified against him back when.
The Squad get on the case, finding indications that Diane had been dressed and wigged to resemble Judy for the sake of witnesses. But in the meantime, Cole obtains the murder weapon, a table knife that Pete had used when with Diane.
The Mods peice together that Judy had been seeing Arthur, and that he and Diane are actually Arthur and Diane Henry, the children of a crooked county narcotics commissioner whom Pete and Judy had busted. The Mods pull a sting on Art with Julie in disguise (with glasses) as a blackmailer to get him to blab about what he did while Greer, Cole, and the others are hidden within earshot.
After Pete has a last moment with Judy at her service--attended only by Cole and the Mods--he leaves the church to do the customary walk-off, Linc and Julie following a few respectful steps behind.
Julie's got wheels of her own this season, a red convertible; and Pete's woody didn't make an appearance.
_______
Back to Sonny & Cher comparisons...you've been making a great deal of fuss about how successful the Monkees were later on the nostalgia circuit. S&C as a duo with their variety shows in the '70s, and Cher with her ongoing music career in the '70s and '80s, maintained a "here and now" presence on the pop cultural radar well past the '60s...whereas the Monkees pretty much disappeared into pop culture irrelevance in the '70s, then came back in the '80s to milk their good ol' days.
50th Anniversary Viewing (Part 1)
_______
The Ed Sullivan Show
Season 22, episode 3
Originally aired October 12, 1969
As represented in The Best of the Ed Sullivan Show
This is an odd bit of business stuck onto a Best of otherwise consisting of material from the Sugar Shoppe episode that had aired in July. Shirley's performing a number I'm not familiar with called "This Is My Life," with much vocal bombast and dramatic body language.Ed said:
Also in the original episode according to tv.com:
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Mission: Impossible
"The Controller: Part 1"
Originally aired October 12, 1969
Wiki said:
Jim's doing some research before he breaks out the portfolio, which involves picking everyone out individually, including tossing aside a couple of unseen rejects. This week's Special Guest Heroine, Meredyth:The reel-to-reel tape in an IMF-operated toll booth said:
Dr. Karl Turek (David Sheiner) has been developing a mind control drug called B-230, which currently has the side effect of causing catatonia. Attempting to stop him before he perfects it, Jim and Meredyth take the place of a couple of defecting American scientists, Dr. Arthur Jarvis and wife, Vera--who conveniently have just had plastic surgery, such that the bad guys don't know what they now look like. There's some existing tension between Turek and the military officer overseeing the project, Colonel Borodin (Alfred Ryder), so the Fake Jarvises are playing that up by claiming to have developed a superior new mind control drug, Voliticon.
Early beats in the mission include Paris in the role of Major Deva and Willy doing some document placement and punch card forgery. Later, Willy assumes the role of a prisoner being used as a test subject, Koenig. Other test subjects include a young couple, Martyn and Katherine (future TNG Season 1 guests Stanley Kamel--billed as Jonathan Brooks--and Brooke Bundy). To prove Voliticon's effectiveness, Turek has Dr. Jim order Guinea Willy to commit suicide, but Jim openly reveals afterward that he'd slipped the clip out of the gun first. There's some genuine tension here because Willy doesn't know this, but reluctantly trusts Jim when he firmly orders him to pull the trigger.
Barney does a lot of the usual sneaking around, which includes getting in a ventilation shaft from which he switches out circuit boards in the lab computer to make it more Voliticon-friendly; and later lowering Willy some equipment from his cell's swank skylight.
Turek and Fake Mrs. Jarvis conspire to use Voliticon to take Dr. Jim out of the picture. Under the fake influence, Jim fake shoots Borodin and is ordered to go drive off a cliff. Meanwhile, the young couple make a break for it and Martyn is real shot. The episode cliffhangs with Jim being fired on by guards while trying to drive out of the complex.
There's lots of Gellerese in this one, and it's been a while since I've seen such a giggle-worthy example:
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Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In
Season 3, episode 5
Originally aired October 13, 1969
The Wiki list of guest appearances said:
An opening musical number about exercise:
Jack E. Leonard does a bit of a standup routine as the intro to Dan and Dick.
General Bull Wright on war being healthy to the economy:
There's a news segment skit of Columbus's discovery of America being covered by the media like the Moon landing. Leonard plays Columbus.
Apparently there was a short-lived game show-format daily spinoff program Letters to Laugh-In, hosted by Gary Owens...they've been plugging it this season.
This week's cocktail party:
The Fickle Finger of Fate goes to the American Independence Party:
Laugh-In takes a look at hospitals, but I couldn't find a clip.
Mitzi Gaynor plugs her show that's on later. She doesn't seem to have had a regular series on after Laugh-In (that was NBC Monday Night at the Movies this season), so it was possibly a special.
Lana Wood is referenced several times before briefly popping up at the end of the Joke Wall, followed by also popping up in the closing German soldier bit.
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The Mod Squad
"Ride the Man Down"
Originally aired October 14, 1969
Wiki said:
My gappy Decades recordings are picking up with the fourth episode of the show's second season.
The teaser has a girl named Diane Halloway (Brenda Scott) reluctantly drugging Pete's drink at the behest of her brother, Arthur (Richard Forbes). We later learn that she lured Pete in with a story about trouble involving a missing brother who was also supposedly drugged and abducted. While Diane is taking instructions from Arthur on the phone, Pete has a conversation with a waitress named Judy (Lynn Borden), who used to work in narco squad and played a role in the arrest that led to Pete being recruited by Greer. As the conversation ends, the drug starts to take effect, and Pete and Diane catch a ride in a cab driven by Arthur.
Pete platonically shares a hotel room with Diane and they go riding the next day. He loses track of her to find that she seems to have fallen into a ravine. It's during the ensuing investigation by the local authorities that Greer and the other Mods make the scene, and it looks bad for Pete when a knife wound is found in the body. This situation is exacerbated by the presence of D.A. Tom Cole (Richard Anderson), who has a bad history with Pete also going back to Pete's arrest. The body in the ravine turns out to be Judy's, and Cole assumes that Pete had it in for her because she'd testified against him back when.
The Squad get on the case, finding indications that Diane had been dressed and wigged to resemble Judy for the sake of witnesses. But in the meantime, Cole obtains the murder weapon, a table knife that Pete had used when with Diane.
The Mods peice together that Judy had been seeing Arthur, and that he and Diane are actually Arthur and Diane Henry, the children of a crooked county narcotics commissioner whom Pete and Judy had busted. The Mods pull a sting on Art with Julie in disguise (with glasses) as a blackmailer to get him to blab about what he did while Greer, Cole, and the others are hidden within earshot.
After Pete has a last moment with Judy at her service--attended only by Cole and the Mods--he leaves the church to do the customary walk-off, Linc and Julie following a few respectful steps behind.
Julie's got wheels of her own this season, a red convertible; and Pete's woody didn't make an appearance.
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It's not one of Santana's classic rock radio staples, but I dig it. More to come on Santana hopefully quite soon. [ETA: Just wrote it up, definitely coming tomorrow.]
Decent and sign o' the timesy, if a bit lightweight.
Hasn't really caught with me yet, but we'll see.
Definitely prefer the Guess Who original.
These guys are on a roll that will continue well into the new decade.
Definitely one of their stone-cold classics.
Now I don't get that out of the lyrics at all...and musically, it's just a great crank-it-up-in-the-car song.
As I've touched upon in the past, this one is particularly evocative to me for having been one of the '60s songs that I was exposed to in a recent hits (rather than oldies) context via the station that my Mom used to listen to in the car when I was little.
It's not denigrating the Monkees to point out that they didn't have the same variety show chops as a duo who'd go on to host eight seasons of their own variety shows (and there were multiple shows, not one)...any more than it would be denigrating the Monkees to point out that they didn't box as well as Muhammad Ali or drive race cars as well as Dale Earnhardt. However, Sonny & Cher aside, the Monkees disappointed me purely on their own merits on Laugh-In. I was looking forward to the episode thinking that they'd be back in their element and that it would be fun to see them guesting as a group, but they weren't in their element at all. It doesn't say much for their show business chops that they floundered so badly outside of anything but their own custom-scripted TV series.
Back to Sonny & Cher comparisons...you've been making a great deal of fuss about how successful the Monkees were later on the nostalgia circuit. S&C as a duo with their variety shows in the '70s, and Cher with her ongoing music career in the '70s and '80s, maintained a "here and now" presence on the pop cultural radar well past the '60s...whereas the Monkees pretty much disappeared into pop culture irrelevance in the '70s, then came back in the '80s to milk their good ol' days.
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Your "point" about them on Laugh-in was a dig at not being able to "adapt" to rather a stagey kind of writing/directing.
Much like Sonny and Cher as a musical act was only worth a couple of songs, and resting on a variety show format that was as old as the medium, and just as tired. Oh, and about the comparison:
Once again, I'm talking about the act you brought into this--Sonny and Cher, not Cher as a solo act (I mentioned her solo success as a contrast to her earlier years) which cannot be grafted to the act with her ex-husband--an act that in Sonny's lifetime would never have a major revival due to public interest or some label thinking their catalog deserved a complete reissue program. Why? No interest and barely a blip in a popular culture sense.
Where? A dry variety show? They were still effectively "in business" as a TV routine and that's the only reason they were "here and now" as you put it, but the act was antically irrelevant.
Now, for a group that actually broke up...
Nonsense. Not only were their many hits in never ending rotation on radio stations across the world, but their TV series-as a rerun was one of the few in TV history to succeed on more than its native network (ABC and CBS after its NBC years). It is not nor has it ever been in the business interests of networks to run properties that do not earn ratings for them/generate ad revenue. ...and they were not doing it for personal fandom or kicks. Moreover, the success of the show in 70s syndication was such that the demand prompted Arista (who had absorbed the Colgems/Bell catalogs) into releasing their label's first greatest hits of the group in 1976, which was--in no shock--a success.
I've already mentioned their incredible success during their 20th anniversary and charting records even in this era. This is no series of coincidences. They have a more than thriving pop culture footprint that has endured more than 50 years, across several generations. That has not been the case with Sonny and Cher.
Try as you might--with Sonny and Cher of all acts--you are not going to rewrite real history to support your position.
A dig to you...legitimate criticism of their talent to me.
So more milking of the Monkees' good ol' days...those two years that they had a show and were selling shitloads of records. Unlike S&C, they weren't staying on the radar with any new contributions to pop culture. You can dismiss the variety shows as irrelevant, but they kept Sonny & Cher beaming into millions of American households four times as long as the Monkees' show lasted.
They were artistically or culturally irrelevant--the S&C act living off of a couple of songs and trotting out their public train wreck of a marriage on a TV stage. Meanwhile, a group that had broken up had a series succeed on networks after its cancellation, and once in general syndication, scored again, as the public demanded their music, hence Arista's response (not to mention Rhino's astounding success with the group's catalog for decades). None of that happened to Sonny and Cher, and no one would ever question why, as the answer was more than apparent. That interest turned into the second phenomenal period of their history in the 80s.
No, that was not, nor would it ever be Sonny and Cher.
Nothing you have to say about Sonny & Cher changes the fact that the Monkees were disappointingly lousy Laugh-In guests. Diana Ross was better on the show as well.
Yes, finding black comedic talent in the 70's would have required going to clubs in black neighborhoods. I don't think Lorne and his scouts ever looked outside white clubs in Manhattan. The thought of seeing Lorne at Maverick's Flatt or The Total Experience on Crenshaw in LA is pretty funny.
I remember some of this. A Different World was set at a fictional HBCU yet significant parts of the first two seasons were devoted to Marisa Tomei's character. No knock on Marisa, but she was out of place on this show. The original producers left after the first two seasons and Debbie Allen was handed the reins. That is when the show became something memorable.
Um hm. Although Eddie stood out in every skit he was in, he didn't move to the top of the cast pecking order until he had the number 1 movie in the nation.
Yes, I've heard complaints about Wenner having vendettas against certain artists. Might be true, but what bias could he have against the Monkees other than that they don't belong in the hall as a "band".Is that really an unfair bias?
I don't think it is fair for him to attempt to keep out any band just because he doesn't like (and I don't know if he has that kind of power anyway), their music or management, or a particular member. But if he lobbies against the Monkees because he feels they aren't a real band, I would agree.
Had they not allowed their dirty laundry to be aired publicly, had they managed to stay together, and had they chosen, S&C could have done just fine touring theater sized venues. They had enough hits to continue touring, and had they stayed together, they likely would have had even more. No doubt some of those Cher songs would have become Sonny and Cher songs. Now add to that the sizable TV following, and that is what I am basing my speculation on.
But I'm not some diehard S&C fan, I just think they are worthy of more respect as a legitimate rock band than the Monkees.
Fair enough.
I'll concede that the Monkees' TV show has had more of an impact than the S&C show but in terms of their legitimacy as a band, I think S&C has the credibility that the Monkees do not.
Okay, there are still some Monkees fans around. What is your point?
The Incredible Two-Headed Transplant!
I'm surprised Leonard Nimoy didn't catch that.
Or maybe it amused him....They do those falling-backward exercises during team-building retreats.
Mission: Impossible may be a spin-off of Twilight Zone.
Interesting change of career there.
It ain't HBO, man.
Not to get too far off track, but I suppose my post was misleading. Note all the patriotic references in the lyrics-- wave the flag, star-spangled, red, white, and blue-- tied to militarism and oppression. In a country founded on liberal philosophy, patriotism is liberalism and liberalism is patriotism. But then the Right Wing came along and decided to redefine patriotism as militarism and religious fundamentalism, the better to control the common people, and the Left Wing just folded and let them take it. This taught a lot of people that patriotism is a bad thing, which was and is a major stumbling block to cultural advancement.
50th Anniversary Album Spotlight
Santana
Santana
Released August 30, 1969
Chart debut: September 13, 1969
Chart peak: #4, November 15, 1969
#150 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time
The album opens on a strong, distinctly Santana-flavored groove with the instrumental "Waiting":
We then proceed to the album's best-known track, future hit single "Evil Ways" (charts Jan. 24, 1970; #9 US; #19 AC), a cover of a song written by Clarence "Sonny" Henry:
Note that lead vocals on the album, where present, are by Gregg Rolie...Santana being a case of the band being led by and named for its guitarist. Also note that by and far the best lyrics on the album were written outside the band.
"Shades of Time," in contrast to the above two numbers, sounds a little too much like a generic rock song. Rolie co-wrote this one with Carlos. Fortunately, it segues directly into the much-preferable instrumental "Savor"...
...which in turn segues into side-closer and current single "Jingo" (charted Oct. 25, 1969; #56 US), written and originally recorded by Nigerian percussionist Babatunde Olatunji. The song features a minimal chant for lyrics, but is musically one of the strongest numbers on the album.
Side two opens with "Persuasion," another underwhelmingly lyric-centric original number. To cop a phrase from Peter, Paul & Mary, I think the words just get in the way on this album.
Our next instrumental, the Rolie-on-piano-centric "Treat," starts off notably softer than anything else on the album, though it gets rocking up.
The album's last track with vocals is "You Just Don't Care"...a case in which the words and phrases mercifully take a back seat to the music.
The album closes with its longest track, the immersive instrumental "Soul Sacrifice"...credited to four band members, including Santana and Rolie, a performance of which will be featured in the Woodstock film:
I was surprised to read about what a negative reception the album got in its day. I guess I can see where it might have been lumped in with all of the long psychedelic rock jamming of the time. History and classic rock radio, however, have been much kinder to Santana's early work. Overall, I find this album to be an enjoyable listen that bridges the sonic threshold between the late '60s and early '70s...at least, when the words aren't getting in the way.
Next up for 50th anniversary business: Abbey Road, The Beatles...though it may be preceded by a 55th anniversary spotlight for Another Side of Bob Dylan.
_______
Santana
Santana
Released August 30, 1969
Chart debut: September 13, 1969
Chart peak: #4, November 15, 1969
#150 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time
Wiki said:
The album opens on a strong, distinctly Santana-flavored groove with the instrumental "Waiting":
We then proceed to the album's best-known track, future hit single "Evil Ways" (charts Jan. 24, 1970; #9 US; #19 AC), a cover of a song written by Clarence "Sonny" Henry:
Note that lead vocals on the album, where present, are by Gregg Rolie...Santana being a case of the band being led by and named for its guitarist. Also note that by and far the best lyrics on the album were written outside the band.
"Shades of Time," in contrast to the above two numbers, sounds a little too much like a generic rock song. Rolie co-wrote this one with Carlos. Fortunately, it segues directly into the much-preferable instrumental "Savor"...
...which in turn segues into side-closer and current single "Jingo" (charted Oct. 25, 1969; #56 US), written and originally recorded by Nigerian percussionist Babatunde Olatunji. The song features a minimal chant for lyrics, but is musically one of the strongest numbers on the album.
Side two opens with "Persuasion," another underwhelmingly lyric-centric original number. To cop a phrase from Peter, Paul & Mary, I think the words just get in the way on this album.
Our next instrumental, the Rolie-on-piano-centric "Treat," starts off notably softer than anything else on the album, though it gets rocking up.
The album's last track with vocals is "You Just Don't Care"...a case in which the words and phrases mercifully take a back seat to the music.
The album closes with its longest track, the immersive instrumental "Soul Sacrifice"...credited to four band members, including Santana and Rolie, a performance of which will be featured in the Woodstock film:
Wiki said:
I was surprised to read about what a negative reception the album got in its day. I guess I can see where it might have been lumped in with all of the long psychedelic rock jamming of the time. History and classic rock radio, however, have been much kinder to Santana's early work. Overall, I find this album to be an enjoyable listen that bridges the sonic threshold between the late '60s and early '70s...at least, when the words aren't getting in the way.
Next up for 50th anniversary business: Abbey Road, The Beatles...though it may be preceded by a 55th anniversary spotlight for Another Side of Bob Dylan.
_______
It's being pronounced "DAY-vuh," FWIW.I'm surprised Leonard Nimoy didn't catch that.
And should one of them not be caught, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of their accident. Good luck!
Her story was pretty sad. She was trying to get out of the undercover cop business and lead a normal life; thought she'd met the right guy but it was a ruse and he killed her; then almost nobody showed up at her service because she hadn't made a lot of friends in all those years as an undercover cop.
But in the context of the late '60s / early '70s...that's when it became the in thing to hate on Uncle Sam. It was the "haves" who were in charge, armed with the flag, who were sending the "have nots" off to die in Vietnam. That's what the song is about. And FWIW, I don't think the song is anti-patriotic...more cynical about how patriotism is being abused by those in power.
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"Better guests" on a stagey show. Oh, the horror. Meanwhile, Sonny and Cher--the act you championed in all of this beyond the Laugh-In matter were and remain artistically and culturally irrelevant whether they are compared to The Monkees or not.
And my initial comment, which sparked all of the outrage, was...
So...not sure what you're disagreeing with.
After Head, 33 1/3 Revolutions per Monkee, and now this, I for one am glad that the Monkees shouldn't have much reason to be coming up as 50th anniversary business any more. Though I suppose I can look forward to more of the same if I have anything less than praiseworthy to say about Davy when he comes up on The Brady Bunch in a couple of years.
Jean Doumanian hired Murphy. Michaels had left the show after S5 (1980) and didn't return till S11 (1985).
ETA: Murphy had a reduced presence in S9 and left the show before the end of that season, so he never worked with Michaels on SNL.
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Heh...yeah, I think the SNL Powers That Be were never interested in a strong black comedian presence, which says much about a production and series which all but screams from the mountaintops about how progressive they are...well, progressive where it suits their interests.
Actually, Tomei--like Lisa Bonet--only appeared in the 1st season. Debbie Allen said she did not fire Tomei, and had thought about a possible second season storyline where series co-star Kadeem Hardison (the Dwayne Wayne character)
had a relationship with Tomei's character, only to have to deal with racial tension on the part of Wayne's parents when he brought her home for Thanksgiving. That would have been in keeping with the showrunners wanting it closer to some black experiences, and perhaps Tomei's character would have a more defined purpose.
Which would lead anyone to believe if he did not have a hit movie, Michaels, et al, would have had no desire to recognize Murphy for the star he was far above everyone else on the show.
For the fact he has vendettas at all strongly suggests his hatred of The Monkees is irrational--not based on anything other than his ridiculous, inaccurate perceptions.
He is one of the members who makes decisions on who gets in.
From any article I've read, that seems to be case: Wenner's bias, or just plain hatred of the group.
But they were more dysfunctional than anything else. If they had a deep catalog, perhaps some audiences could have focused on something other than a rotting relationship, but that was not the case. That's part of their problem; even the issues between Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball (his being a serial adulterer was an open secret to the public) never smothered the perception or value of I Love Lucy, because the content was so strong (and there was a lot of it) that audiences did not need to zero in on the dirt...oh, and they (Lucy and Desi) did not promote it, either.
There was no way to convert (for example) her most notable 70s solo hits: "Half Breed", "Dark Lady" or "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" (all inapplicable to Bono in any case) into a brand of schmaltzy duet material. Part of the success of those "story songs" was the focus on the lone "character" and/or her environment, and that was utterly unfit for Bono.
How so? At the start of it all, each were already playing music; Nesmith had a hit song under his belt ("Different Drum") and wrote/produced his own songs for The Monkees from the start. We already know Jones was a seasoned Broadway singer who also cut singles pre-Monkees, Tork was a trained multi-instrumentalist well known in the music club scenes on the East and West coasts (in fact, it was in the clubs where Tork and Nesmith first met) and Dolenz had been in a band and cut a record. Contrary to the myths pushed by certain music rags, those four men were not "actors" who mimed to songs, but each brought their own talent into it, with Nesmith and Tork already contributing on a number of songs, even during the early, oppressive Kirshner days. That's a band.
Meaning, they are still culturally relevant over a half century after their debut if they are still charting high, which is more than can be said of many acts from the 60s--including Sonny and Cher.