The Chronology of the TOS movies

[MAGolding]

In the thread "What happened between TMP and WOK?" my post 144 and post 151 discuss the chronology of the TOS movies in stardate units.

As we know, the stardates from season 2 of TNG onward were rather consistent with the idea of a relationship between stardate units and the passage of time on planets. That is, consistent with the idea of a formula like there being X stardate units in Y Earth time units, for example.

The writers of TNG, DS9, and VOY even had specific relationships between stardates and Earth time in mind - two different contradictory relationships. There were supposed to be 1,000 stardate units per Earth year, thus making about 2.737 stardate units per Earth day, and also 1 stardate unit per Earth day, thus making about 365.25 stardate units per Earth year. The TNG stardate system cannot be consistent unless the 1,000-stardate-long years are not Earth years, and/or some of the days mentioned are not Earth days.

In my opinion, the length of stardate units was not chosen to relate to time units on Earth or any other planet. Instead the length of a stardate unit was chosen to have relationship to a time unit important to interstellar travel.

Since one thousand is an important number in base ten number systems, and since 1,000 stardate units happen to be similar to the lengths of the years of many Federation planets, it is customary to speak of 1,000 stardate units as a year, a sort of stardate year. Many time intervals are given in stardate years or the years of planets that have a similar length, though some time intervals are given in planetary years that are much longer or shorter than stardate years.

I have found a year that could be between 1108 and 1109.333 stardate units long, but is many times more likely to be between 831 and 832 stardate units long. This year is very probably an Earth year,making an Earth day 2.277 stardate units long.

It is my belief that stardates actually contain at least six digits before the decimal point. Star Trek characters always say all six digits before the decimal point, but the creators of TOS era productions only include the last four digits before the decimal point and the creators of TNG era productions only show the last five digits before the decimal point. Thus TOS era stardates are missing at least the first two digits and TNG era stardates are missing at least the first digit.

first version of chronology:

112794.7 A stardate connected with the crisis on Tarsus IV, but 4 to 5 years before the cisis, and thus 24 to 25 years before "Conscience of the King". This may be the stardate when Tarsus IV was settled, or when Kodos became governor, or when the fungus was first discovered, or when a survey team decided tarsus IV was safe to settle.
115345.6 Earliest possible stardate for crisis on Tarsus IV.
116197.6 Latest possible stardate for crisis on Tarsus IV.
131277.1 Possible stardate Kirk takes Command of Enterprise - on tombstone.
131312.4 "Where No Man Has Gone Before" lasts from 131312.4 to 131313.8. McCoy not yet surgeon on Enterprise.
131329.8 "Mudd's Women". McCoy already surgeon on Enterprise.
131709.2 "Balance of Terror". Nimbus II should be founded after 131709.2.
132817.6 The first stardate in "Conscience of the King" is 2817.6. The crisis on Tarsus IV was 20.0 to 21.0 years before (16620-17472 stardates).
133141.9 "Space Seed". Stardates given are 3141.9 and 3143.3.
135943.7 "All Our yesterdays". Stardate 5943.9 is the latest stardate in TOS and the latest that says five year mission.

136450. Foundation of Nimbus III may be between stardates 136450 and 139450 if TFF is on stardate 158450.
137403.6 "Bem" The latest stardate in TAS.

Kirk logged his last star hour two and a half years before TMP and also became chief of Starfleet Operations two and a half years before TMP. 2.25 to 2.75 Earth years 831 to 8.32 stardate units long total 1869.75 to 2288 stardate units. 2.25 to 2.75 stardate years 1,000 stardate units long total 2250 to 2750 stardate units. Thus if Kirk went to Earth immediately after "All Our Yesterdays" the earliest possible date for TMP should be stardates 137813.65 to 138231.9 and 138193.9 to 138693.9.

137410.2 TMP. Includes stardates 7410.2, 7412.6, 7413.4, & 7414.1. A possible date.

TMP could happen as early as 137410.2 if some of the later TOS and TAS episodes happen in an alternate universe to TMP. All episodes after stardates 134660.2 (TOS episodes after "By Any Other Name" and all TAS except 3) to 135540.45 (all TOS after "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" and all TAS after "Beyond the Farthest star"). A list of episodes by stardate is here:

http://startreklist.blogspot.com/2011/04/list-of-all-star-trek-episodes-sorted.html

If putting those episodes into an alternate universe to TMP is not acceptable, TMP must happen after stardate 137410.2 and thus begin on stardate 147410.2.

140146. Foundation of Nimbus III may be between stardates 140146 and 142661 if TFF is on stardate 158450.

143986.4 Earliest possible date for last time Kirk and Khan see each other if WOK begins in 158130.4

146496.4. Latest possible date for last time Kirk and Khan see each other if WOK begins in 158130.4

Kirk becoming chief of Starfleet Operations and logging his last star hour happen between stardates 144660.2 and 145160.2, or between stardates 145122.2 and 145540.45, if TMP begins on stardate 147410.2.

147410.2 TMP. Includes stardates 7410.2, 7412.6, 7413.4, & 7414.1. The more probable date.

148130.4 WOK as calculated below. 720.2 stardate units, about 0.866 Earth years after TMP.
__8130.4 Beginning stardate of WOK. Stardates include 8130.4 and 8146.6.

Kirk and Khan both say it has been 15 years since they last saw each other, probably soon after stardate 3143.3. If 15 years is 14.0 to 17.0 years, and the years are Earth years 831 to 832 stardate units long, there have been 11634 to 14144 stardate units. If the years are stardate years 1,000 stardate units long, the difference is 14,000 to 17,000 stardates. Thus the possible stardate ranges for WOK are 144777.3 to 147287.3 and 147143.3 to 150143.3.

148210.3 TSFS.

148390.0 TVH.

148450.0 Beginning stardate of TFF as calculated below.
__8450.0 Stardate in TFF. Caitlin Dar says Nimbus III founded 20 years earlier. If that is 19.0 to 22.0 Earth years 831 to 832 stardate units long, that is 15789 to 18304 stardate units. If that is 19.0 to 22.0 stardate years 1,000 stardate units long, that is 19,000 to 22,000 stardate units.

TFF should thus be in or after (depending how long after "Balance of Terror" Nimbus III was founded) the period between stardates 147498.2 and 1500132 or the period between stardates 150709.2 and 153709.2.

Kirk and Khan both say it has been 15 years since they last saw each other, probably soon after stardate 3143.3. If 15 years is 14.0 to 17.0 years, and the years are Earth years 831 to 832 stardate units long, there have been 11634 to 14144 stardate units. If the years are stardate years 1,000 stardate units long, the difference is 14,000 to 17,000 stardates. Thus if WOK begins on 158130.4, Kirk and Khan last see each other between stardates 141130.4 and 144130.4, or between stardates 143986.4 and 146496.4.

158130.4 WOK if it happens 10,720.2 stardate units after 147410.2 start of TMP.

158210.3 TSFS if WOK Begins on stardate 158130.4.

158390.0 TVH if WOK Begins on stardate 158130.4.

158450.0 TFF if WOK Begins on stardate 158130.4.

159521.6 First stardate in TUC. TUC includes stardates __9521.6, __9522.6, and __9529.1. McCoy says he has been surgeon on Enterprise for 27 years (on and off?), probably in the range of 26.0 to 29.0 years At 831 to 832 stardate units per earth year, that makes a difference of 21,606 to 24,128 stardate units. At 1,000 stardate units per stardate year, that makes 26,000 to 29,000 stardate units. If McCoy becomes surgeon of Enterprise between 131313.8 and 131329.8, TUC should happen between 152919.8 and 160329.8. TUC should happen 159521.6 to 159529.1.

 

[Maurice]

I suggest this isn't really the right forum for this, as it isn't about the movies per se, it's retconning the later stardate system to work on the TOS era.

Also, I think most people are here for discussion, whereas you've posted essentially an technical paper without so much as a "what do you think?" at the end.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Moving this to GTD.

 

[gottacook]

Here is something I put into a different thread 2 years ago, concerning why any star date-based chronology is (in my opinion) just plain futile:

Star dates were invented to get around the problem of episodes being shown "out of order" and had the side benefit of obscuring the relativity problem. Quoting from Roddenberry in The Making of Star Trek:

Unfortunately, however, the episodes are not aired in the same order in which we filmed them. So we began to get complaints from the viewers, asking, "How come one week the star date is 2891, the next week it's 2337, and then the week after it's 3414?"

In answering these questions, I came up with the statement that "this time system adjusts for shifts in relative time which occur due to the vessel's speed and space warp capability. It has little relationship to Earth's time as we know it. One hour aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise at different times may equal as little as three Earth hours. The star dates specified in the log entry must be computed against the speed of the vessel, the space warp, and its position within our galaxy, in order to give a meaningful reading." Therefore star date would be one thing at one point in the galaxy and something else again at another point in the galaxy.

I'm not quite sure what I meant by that explanation, but a lot of people have indicated it makes sense. If so, I've been lucky again, and I'd just as soon forget the whole thing before I'm asked any further questions about it.​

Thinking of the passage of time in terms of "years" only became an issue starting with TMP, because that's when the Enterprise was first shown to visit present-day Earth. Yes, of course "years ago" appeared in dialogue in occasional episodes, but that's not the same as counting from a baseline number; also it would have been confusing to speak in terms of "star date units ago" and not worth the trouble to do so.
​

Any attempt to organize decades' worth of TV and film productions (with constantly changing creative teams - story editors, writers, producers, etc.) coherently is somewhat like trying to reconcile the changes in the transporter effect from 1966 through the 1990s: You can go down a rabbit hole trying to work out the physics of why (for example) by the time of The Voyage Home Mr. Spock can be transported while walking in Golden Gate Park, or you can just relax and understand that, for good or ill, this was a creative decision that the budget allowed, could be achieved technically, and added a few seconds' worth of visual interest. Likewise for star dates and trying to reconcile a chronology out of them: Trying to impose order on such decisions retrospectively is, I would suggest, a use of mental energy that can be better spent on tractable problems, learning to play a musical instrument, etc.

 

[1001001]

Moving this to GTD.

Thanks a lot.



MAGolding, you are giving WAY more thought to this than the people who actually wrote Star Trek.

 

[Lord Garth]

There are three possibilities:

1. Stardates in TOS Movies just move slower. Possibly 5-10 times slower.

2. Stardates in TOS Movies are still "1,000 per year", it's just that after Stardate 9999, they reset to Stardate 0000. So, if "Space Seed" is Stardate 3141, then TWOK is really Stardate 18130, but they just said 8130.

3. They made it all up as they went along.