"the chase" Reprucussions

[sadsquid]

Why would there be reprecussions except for the advancement of peace, knowledge and understanding?

We don't really get to see the "reprecussions" of the Theory of Evolution in everyday life... Maybe the odd documentary about some backward hick school teaching "inteligent design", but other than that it doesn't really affect us too much.

Yup, the old ad hominem attack. Actually, much evidence contradicts evolution and many scientists in our day are creationists. The reason for this is because evolution is not based on facts, but speculation and unproveable assumptions.

Intelligent design is reasonable and is supported by our everyday experiences; life and blind nature creating itself is unreasonable and not supported by our everyday experiences.

But, of course, emotion trumps the facts when it comes to the question of God's existence.

Intelligent design is based off of "Well, some guys wrote this book several millennia ago who say they got this information from a magical sky being." Sorry, I'll take educated assumptions based on years, even centuries, of studied evidence over that any day of the week.

Yes, evolution is based on assumptions but these are educated assumptions over studying samples and all of the evidence. Coincidentally evolution itself is completely evolving to match the latest pieces of evidence to reach the most-likely conclusion.

Creationists still say the earth is only 8,000 years old which hardly makes much room for dinosaurs or for the formation of mountains and such based on pretty much proven facts on the existence of the former and the time it takes to form the latter.

I wasn't going to join in on this discussion, but I just thought I'd say, not all people who believe in God believe that. There are extremists in many beliefs/philosophies/etc. But don't lump everyone in with the Westboro Baptist Church!

On topic, The Chase did seem to reveal a pretty important background story that I was slightly disappointed they never returned to. I would've liked to know more about the ancient race.

Edit: Ooh, Lieutenant Junior Grade. I've been promoted

 

[MikeS]

The Klingon and Cardassians quickly left orbit, probably forgetting what that message was about and returning to their home worlds. Probably the contents of the message was stored away by the Federation and Romulans in some database somewhere.

Interesting that only the Feds and the Romulans "got" the message. As someone else suggested, maybe there are other such "messages" embedded in our DNA - Perhaps to a super-weapon or some other ancient knowledge. I could imagine a whole Tal-Shiar division attached to discovering such a secret. Perhaps stories to be told lie in that direction...

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Let's get off the "God" tangent before things get heated.

 

[publiusr]

Due to the actress playing the role of seeder, I might suggest a connection to sphere builders and founders.

 

[Pavonis]

^That's a thin connection, to make an understatement. Might as well say Commander Giotto changed his name to Wesley when he was promoted to Commodore.

 

[CorporalClegg]

To be fair, in some circles Macet and Dukat are cousins.

 

[Mojochi]

To be fair, in some circles Macet and Dukat are cousins.

I didn't know that. Is that just a fan fantasy, or is there anything to support it?

 

[CorporalClegg]

Macet is a key figure in the DS9 relaunch. And he is Dukat's cousin, but he hates Dukat.

 

[Timo]

...Which is also why he wears a mustache. For a Cardassian, it's a bit like flaunting one's warts, but at least it accentuates the difference.

"The Chase" suggests these generic ancient humanoids seeded the galaxy with material that would create further humanoids eventually. But this doesn't mean that they were the only ones to do so, or that all humanoid life is the result of seeding by them or others. It just shows that their technique triumphed over competition, resulting in the statistical victory of their code being found in dozens of local species (and perhaps millions of species overall) in the 24th century.

Really, such a driven culture would be expected to pursue its goal with aggressive technology that identifies, engages and ruthlessly destroys (or co-opts) competing seeding programs. And so would other, similar cultures, meaning that the "evolution" seen in action in the Trek universe is in fact just a battlefield of weird biotechnologies.

Which is what the evolution seen in action in our universe is all about, too. It's just that we know for sure that in Trek, the technologies were given definite goals by a humanoid intelligence, whereas our competitors have incredibly fuzzy goals they pursue with indifference, always settling for the barely adequate and never thinking ahead...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeS]

...Which is also why he wears a mustache. For a Cardassian, it's a bit like flaunting one's warts, but at least it accentuates the difference.

"The Chase" suggests these generic ancient humanoids seeded the galaxy with material that would create further humanoids eventually. But this doesn't mean that they were the only ones to do so, or that all humanoid life is the result of seeding by them or others. It just shows that their technique triumphed over competition, resulting in the statistical victory of their code being found in dozens of local species (and perhaps millions of species overall) in the 24th century.

Really, such a driven culture would be expected to pursue its goal with aggressive technology that identifies, engages and ruthlessly destroys (or co-opts) competing seeding programs. And so would other, similar cultures, meaning that the "evolution" seen in action in the Trek universe is in fact just a battlefield of weird biotechnologies.

Which is what the evolution seen in action in our universe is all about, too. It's just that we know for sure that in Trek, the technologies were given definite goals by a humanoid intelligence, whereas our competitors have incredibly fuzzy goals they pursue with indifference, always settling for the barely adequate and never thinking ahead...

Timo Saloniemi

"Competing seeding programmes"? She quite clearly states that her species found themselves to be alone in the galaxy - that was their whole reaon behind the seeding programme.

 

[Timo]

Yup - and the moment their project succeeded, one or more of the resulting sapient humanoids would launch their own corresponding programs, some in order to support or outdo their benefactors, others in order to ruin their plans. There would have been time for at least ten thousand generations of new species to have emerged and given rise to further species - the same way generations within species give rise to new generations, only about ten thousand times more slowly.

Certainly we have no reason to think that the galaxy would have been devoid of sapient humanoid cultures between the passing of the first seeders 4 billion years ago and the emetgence of the first sapient humanoids known to us (AFAIK, that'd be the Slavers of TAS, one billion years ago).

Timo Saloniemi.

 

[RAMA]

its never mentioned again... but any idea how the message at the end of the episode affects the academic and scientific community in the federation and elsewhere?

The only sequel I know of to this directly was in a video game.

I wrote a synopsis for a sequel which is my only fanfic type story ever. I'm not really a big fanfic reader so I don't expect people to want to read mine. Though I think it would have made the best ST movie ever.

Obviously The Chase is important on many levels. In-universe it explains the human centrism we see on screen. In reality it gives us a conceit for the limited makeup budget. In-universe it gives us an underlying epic scale, touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS, and expands ST into a timeline much like any good world building universe like Larry Niven's Known Space, Brin's Uplift, Iain M. Banks Culture, etc.

Like another long-time scifi example in season 5, the Dyson Sphere, the discovery in biology would probably have a huge amount of resources thrown at it, and would probably pick up the threads more quickly than just one man could have done.

Culturally, there may be some in the "enlightened" 24th century, even allies that would not like the implications. Eventually I think finding out we are all more related than we thought would bring a certain sense of appreciation to all the affected races.

We already saw that the Yridians and several enemies of the UFP were ready to fight over the information, it might be possible that any other "secrets" discovered would also.

For Star Trek as a TV show, The Chase is clearly the signature piece of the franchise as a whole, it brings almost all the major players of the time and ties them together with a brisk "chase" plot (combining the Sagan "Contact" element of finding universal clues in a long calculation for Pi and a Mad, Mad..World)...so it has good character moments for Picard, action, philosophy, a healthy dose of humor, and a perfect Trek ending..the Romulan captain calling Picard which suggests a light at the end of the tunnel of conflict with each other.

Directed panspermia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_panspermia

Seeder ships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seedship#Replicating_.22seeder.22_ships

RAMA

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I have nothing but respect for people who believe in a higher power, so I'm not going to attack anyone or call them stupid, because I do not believe they are.

However, the contention that evolution is based on assumptions and not supported by evidence is purely untrue. The fact that evolution is an ongoing process of change is not scientifically up for dispute, otherwise you should have faith that you will never need another flu vaccine. Species continually adapt to be able to survive better, that is thoroughly proven. The extension that life arose by chance through that same process? I suppose to obtain 'Hard evidence' of that you would need to first find a planet that was exactly like early Earth then wait a few billion years and see if intelligent life evolved. But there is scientific proof that the conditions of early Earth lead to basic amino acids and phospholipids forming by themselves. There is ample solid scientific reasoning that life could arise by itself and that simple life forms could evolve into complex life forms. That is not assumption or being guided by one's emotions, that is inductive reasoning from observation.

I do not believe in a higher power, but I suppose if a higher power did exist, it would logically follow that it is capable of intelligently designing mankind. And yes, I can not explain why I experience consciousness if that consciousness is only the result of chemical reactions.

Anyway, I say teach evolution in school and creationism in Sunday School. And in general, just don't be a dick to people who disagree with you.

 

[Timo]

touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS

This one I have never understood. The Preservers maintained status quo by abducting a small cultural subgroup of an existing species a few hundred years ago. "The Chase" dealt with folks who changed everything by introducing millions of all-new species in a grand scheme spanning aeons, four billion years ago!

IMHO, seeing the Preservers as tying into "The Chase" is akin to seeing "The Savage Curtain" as dealing with the extinction of whales...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

I'm with the Klingon, it was a total let down of a revelation. The Romulan was just saying that so he could find a weakness in the Federation's defences someday under the pretence of "we arent so different"

I thought they were trying to tie into the Preservers, but Timo has a point, they would never have met, unless the Preservers are a specially created sub group of that race that stayed around as needed.


Off topic

Thank you JirinPanthosa for your post, I appreciate it.

No thank you for the insulting post from the other poster, intolerance is not pretty.

 

[T'Girl]

The fact that evolution is an ongoing process of change is not scientifically up for dispute, otherwise you should have faith that you will never need another flu vaccine. Species continually adapt to be able to survive better, that is thoroughly proven.

You would seem to be confusing (or possible combining) evolution and adaptation. Adaptation can be accomplish solely through natural selection. Evolution can include things like genetic drift, mutation and intentional manipulation (breeding/genetic engineering).

The Chase seems to be saying that there is also (in the Trek Universe) long term "eventual results" instructions that can be encoded into DNA.

Anyway, I say teach evolution in school and creationism in Sunday School.

Problem with that is, while "school" is mandatory, "Sunday school" isn't. Not all children in our society attend Sunday school. For them to receive information on both evolution and creationism, in order that later they would be able to make their own informed choices and decisions, both would have to be taught to them in the only instructional environment where attendance is mandatory.

 

[RAMA]

touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS

This one I have never understood. The Preservers maintained status quo by abducting a small cultural subgroup of an existing species a few hundred years ago. "The Chase" dealt with folks who changed everything by introducing millions of all-new species in a grand scheme spanning aeons, four billion years ago!

IMHO, seeing the Preservers as tying into "The Chase" is akin to seeing "The Savage Curtain" as dealing with the extinction of whales...

Timo Saloniemi

Well the facts are this direct mention was considered by Moore. It was my first thought when seeing the episode. I have no problem believing in a multi tier plan to seed or protect races, similar plots exist in 2001 and Contact, and also have no problem believing a civilization could exist for a 5 or 6 billion years in a stretch. The idea they may "pass on" not only exists in literature but also Star Trek itself.

 

[Timo]

It really smacks of "small universe", not to mention a major downgrade for the seeders. Their four-billion-year plan for the entire galaxy was a stunning success; their transplantation of a handful of native Americans was a dismal failure that would have led to total extinction had Kirk not intervened...

At best, I could buy the Preservers believing they are the continuation of some ancient great plan, much like Freemasons would like to believe in a society history going back to the days of the pyramid builders...

Problem with that is, while "school" is mandatory, "Sunday school" isn't. Not all children in our society attend Sunday school. For them to receive information on both evolution and creationism, in order that later they would be able to make their own informed choices and decisions, both would have to be taught to them in the only instructional environment where attendance is mandatory.

That would solve nothing, though, as it would still completely ignore such worldviews as Pastafarianism or the concept of Earth being a flat plate atop elephants atop a turtle. At some point, you either have to cut off the crap altogether, or then condense it into a footnote saying "visit your local library, Dewey code 213, for associated bullshit".

The art of making informed choices is something that needs to be taught separately; it can then cover subjects such as creationism. OTOH, there are worthwhile things to be taught about evolution, whereas there's nothing teachable about creationism beyond the existence of the term.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RAMA]

The alternative of course is that the Preservers themselves, or remaining Preservers were in a state of degradation themselves...and they died out instead of passing on. Providing an asteroid deflector was the most they could manage.

Edit: Also any Preservers who chose to stay "past their prime" to help or influence younger races with asteroid deflectors also has a precedent in lit, two examples that come to mind are The Culture series and with the Greg Bear Halo novels.

 

[yousirname]

Never liked this episode. Seems to undermine the idea of 'truly' alien species coming to understanding. Once their ultimate roots are identical, so what?

Doesn't have any particular implications for evolution, though, not sure why people are saying that.