The Case Against Kirk

[Armus]

A small example is a case in point. For decades there has been the running joke of Kirk making it with all the chicks and particularly the green skinned alien ones. And yet nowhere in the series does this actually happen. The one green skinned alien female he does encounter is nutso and intent on killing him an understandably he wants nothing to do with her. And yet this unsubstantiated cliche was played to for the general audience.

NuKirk was played in a way that affirms erroneous assumptions of TOS Kirk and in extant indicting the TOS Kirk as outdated and not worthy of appreciation.

Now the details don't really matter in a reboot because what happened before doesn't really count anymore. But from the get-go the TOS Kirk was a character to be admired and he would be shown to be worthy of appreciation and respect even with his character flaws. But the end result for NuKirk is not a character worthy of respect and admiration but a cocky, mouthy brat who gets lucky and doesn't earn the things handed to him.

You have really hit the nail on the head. It bothers me that Kirk became known merely as the arrogant, rule-breaking, won't accept the no-win-scenario womanizer. I don't care if that's what people like about him, but it's not an accurate characterization of the man written and acted in the original series. Kirk was a no-nonsense guy who always cut to the point. He wasn't arrogant nor smug nor foolish. He was confident because he was doing what was his purpose to do. Kirk was not the exception to every rule, he had to control himself and be a model of personal discipline to his crew. He loved his ship and being Captain. He once said he had trained his whole life for the kind of split second decisions and crisis that a starship commander faced. He was responsible for hundreds of lives and the seriousness of that responsibility weighed on him. He had a sense of humor, he enjoyed the company and counsel of his officers, and he happened to establish frequent romantic relationships on his travels.

 

[T'Girl]

Even so, in another deleted scene Kirk did apologize. Sort of.

The "all orion women look ther same" deleted scene? Yeah, that certainly painted Kirk in a good light.

 

[Myasishchev]

If your audience expects to see Kirk with a green girl, where's the harm in giving them what they want?

Especially if you get a fun, sexy scene out of it . . . .

But it wasn't so fun and sexy if you watch the deleted scenes. You see that Kirk was just using her.

Hence the scene being deleted and not actually being part of the film.

Even so, in another deleted scene Kirk did apologize. Sort of.

Oh God. It's pretty clear why that whole plot thread was excised.

Not that it wasn't funny, but they'd already made Kirk a douchebag--I suppose someone decided it wasn't necessary to make him a misogynist, racist douchebag.

 

[BillJ]

But it wasn't so fun and sexy if you watch the deleted scenes. You see that Kirk was just using her.

Hence the scene being deleted and not actually being part of the film.

Even so, in another deleted scene Kirk did apologize. Sort of.

Oh God. It's pretty clear why that whole plot thread was excised.

Not that it wasn't funny, but they'd already made Kirk a douchebag--I suppose someone decided it wasn't necessary to make him a misogynist, racist douchebag.

The pure fact that the scenes were written and filmed, showed how little they actually understood the character of James T. Kirk.

 

[blssdwlf]

Like I said, we were introduced to TOS Kirk in the middle of his story AFTER all that background stuff already happened and all his development. We never found out anything about his life before Starfleet, actually.

Not quite. We do know that Kirk is from Iowa ("The Voyage Home") and sometime in his teens he was on Tarsus-4 and lucky to have not been selected for the mass execution ordered by Governor Kodos. That story is brought up in "The Conscience of the King". In "The Apple", Kirk tells us that one of his crewman's father (Mallory) helped him get into the academy. "Operation: Annihilate" tells us he has a brother named Sam.

I don't recall anything mentioned about his dad or mom though.

NuKirk, with a reboot and all, it's not really an option to just drop us off in the middle of his story.

NuKirk's upbringing differs in a couple of spots. He's born in space and Pike helps him into the academy. Because of the time gap between the corvette ride and the bar fight, Tarsus-4 still might have happened. Also, since we don't know anything about TOS Kirk's parents, his dad could have also died early on as well but we'll never know, IMO.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Well, we know from the new movie that Kirk Prime's dad was the reason he joined Starfleet, and that he lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise.

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm assuming that Kirk was nowhere near Tarsus-4 in this timeline. That would be a major, traumatic, turning point in his life. I can't imagine they would leave it out of his origin story--or that it simply never came up when he was talking to Pike or McCoy. We can probably forget about the cloud monster in "Obsession," too.

The old Kirk's past was assembled in bits and pieces, according to the needs of that week's episode. There was never any overall plan or story arc involved. This time around, Kirk seems to be more of a Prince Hal type: the seemingly callow, wastrel son who surprises everyone by becoming a leader of men.

Hey, it worked for Shakespeare . . . .

 

[blssdwlf]

^Well, we know from the new movie that Kirk Prime's dad was the reason he joined Starfleet, and that he lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise.

I dunno. In Spock Prime's universe, Kirk Prime supposedly talked about his dad often. TOS Kirk speak of his dad? Not a word, AFAIK.

ST:XI -
KIRK: Wait. Where you came from, did I know my father?
SPOCK PRIME: Yes. You often spoke of him as being your inspiration for joining Starfleet. He proudly lived to see you become Captain of the Enterprise.


@Greg Cox - yeah. I think Tarsus-4 was very unlikely. The "Obsession" incident on the Farragut technically hasn't happened for nuKirk as that was post-academy for TOS-Kirk. NuKirk could still run into the creature though on the Enterprise. NuKirk is much more closer to Luke Skywalker's story from "A New Hope".

 

[F. King Daniel]

TOS Kirk also had a son who we never heard about during the series. In TNG, the Federation was supposedly at war with the Cardassians during the first few seasons but it was just "never mentioned" until later on, in retrospect. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

Besides, Kirk's mentioned his dad plenty of times in Trek novels dating back to the 70's and 80's.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Kirk's encounter with the cloud creature happened in 2257 in the prime universe. Unless he was near Tycho VI it's unlikely NuKirk encountered it. Or he did encounter it while he was at the academy and destroyed it in his first encounter with it.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Picard would seem to have been more of a colonialist than Kirk. In the 24th century the Federation/Starfleet were much more expansionist, fighting a major boarder war with the Cardassians.

Starfleet has an imperial attitude. They assume they have the right to "explore" everywhere (which from another perspective is called "trespassing") and their underlying agenda for their so-called peaceful exploration is to assimilate new worlds into the Federation, to expand their power and reach. It's unfair to single out Kirk for something that is a characteristic of the organization he works for. At least he wasn't a hypocrite about it like Picard.

Kirk is a cowboy by temperament and a womanizer by virtue of being a good-looking guy who finds it easy to get laid (as long as Spock wasn't around distracting all the ladies).

 

[blssdwlf]

TOS Kirk also had a son who we never heard about during the series.

"The Wrath of Khan" implied Kirk might not have known about David until sometime during the movie.

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell me?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. ... Actually, he's a lot like you. In many ways.

As to TNG, and the novels - that's not even the same ;-)

 

[Greg Cox]

Kirk's encounter with the cloud creature happened in 2257 in the prime universe. Unless he was near Tycho VI it's unlikely NuKirk encountered it. Or he did encounter it while he was at the academy and destroyed it in his first encounter with it.

Of course, nowadays if Kirk ran into a cloud monster, people would just think Abrams was doing LOST again . . .

 

[Warped9]

^Well, we know from the new movie that Kirk Prime's dad was the reason he joined Starfleet, and that he lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise.

We know that of nuKirk, not of TOS Kirk.

 

[Greg Cox]

^Well, we know from the new movie that Kirk Prime's dad was the reason he joined Starfleet, and that he lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise.

We know that of nuKirk, not of TOS Kirk.

No. Spock Prime was speaking of the old timeline when he told nuKirk that. He was telling the new Kirk about the original Kirk and his father.

 

[blssdwlf]

No. Spock Prime was speaking of the old timeline when he told nuKirk that. He was telling the new Kirk about the original Kirk and his father.

About Spock Prime's Kirk, yes. Original Kirk? Depends on which one

• The one where all the Klingons don't have forehead ridges (TOS) or
• the Klingons that do have forehead ridges (Movies) or
• DS9 Kirk where they mix both the Klingons together or
• the one where Kirk dies on the Enterprise-B ("Generations") or
• the one where Kirk was still alive when Scotty locks himself in a transporter loop on the Jenolan ("Relics") ?

I wonder though that in Spock Prime's universe that Kirk Prime took command of the Enterprise right out of the academy (unlike TOS Kirk). When Spock Prime first runs into nuKirk he thinks Kirk should already be in command despite being more than a decade younger than when TOS-Kirk first took command.

 

[Warped9]

^Well, we know from the new movie that Kirk Prime's dad was the reason he joined Starfleet, and that he lived to see Jim become captain of the Enterprise.

We know that of nuKirk, not of TOS Kirk.

No. Spock Prime was speaking of the old timeline when he told nuKirk that. He was telling the new Kirk about the original Kirk and his father.

I am NOT having this discussion again.

 

[T'Girl]

@Greg Cox - yeah. I think Tarsus-4 was very unlikely. The "Obsession" incident on the Farragut technically hasn't happened for nuKirk as that was post-academy for TOS-Kirk. NuKirk could still run into the creature though on the Enterprise. NuKirk is much more closer to Luke Skywalker's story from "A New Hope".

It's possible that the Farragut still encountered the cloud creature, just with a different young officer in Kirk's billet.

When Spock Prime first runs into nuKirk he thinks Kirk should already be in command despite being more than a decade younger than when TOS-Kirk first took command.

Wiliam Shatner looked pretty much the same at twenty-five as he did at thirty-five, both Kirk and nuKirk should have possessed the same appearance at age twenty-five. Now unless Nero made a point of telling him, it is possible that Spock didn't know exactly what year he was in, he was captured (it seems) immediately after emerging from the lightning storm. Not much time to figure the year from the position of the stars.

.

 

[F. King Daniel]

despite being a decade younger than when TOS-Kirk took command.

Spock Prime didn't know the current date until he'd started his mind meld with Kirk.

Also, we don't know when Kirk Prime became a captain. All we know is that he was the Enterprise captain age 34, and briefly had the middle initial "R". The rest is fan speculation.

 

[blssdwlf]

despite being a decade younger than when TOS-Kirk took command.

Spock Prime didn't know the current date until he'd started his mind meld with Kirk.

Also, we don't know when Kirk Prime became a captain. All we know is that he was the Enterprise captain age 34, and briefly had the middle initial "R". The rest is fan speculation.

Spock Prime did know that Nero waited 25 years for him to come out of the black hole. He might not know the date, but you'd think that nuKirk saying Pike was taken prisoner would've flagged the time being "different"

You are correct that we don't know when Kirk Prime became a captain but we do know when TOS Kirk did not become captain. Eleven years prior in "Obsession" as a Lieutenant his first commander was Captain Garrovick.

Also, his middle initial is "R" according to his frenemy Mitchell. That's the same guy who almost derailed Kirk's career with a blond lab technician and consumed with power. A bad guy that calls the hero a dirty name doesn't make him correct (most of the time )