The case against capaint Saru and ensing Tilly

[Deks]

Back to topic
Deks did, indeed, correct my errors and your points are spot on, starting with reverse engineering Discovery to Riker. Guess my TNG knowledge is slightly rusty. I belive it's time for TNG re-run marathon, it's only a matter of finding enough time.
Shame that it all comes down to is poor story telling and overlooking plot holes for sake of story arc.

I did agree with most of what you said though... but I also share your point of view that Discovery writers have either been negligent, lazy, just didn't care, or didn't know (or all of the above) when writing Season 3. What makes this worse is the fact that they have science consultants.
Just who the heck are these people if they end up making these ridiculous mistakes?

 

[Go-Captain]

Saru was railroaded into being bad. It’s one thing to make a few mistakes in a new position and another to consistently make out of character mistakes involving oversights.

Saru got over any kind of timidness once he hit alien puberty. He has years of experience as 1st officer. He had been away from his people for years without any issue. His withholding information, assuming a superior doesn’t want to be up to date, and being afraid to share embarrassing information should not have happened.

Tilly actually lead a team once, when she makes her infamous line “that’s the power of math, people!” It is the dark matter asteroid episode. The problem is it’s easily forgotten because it’s not the focus, and we don’t see her leading again, even though real ensigns lead as part of their work. Though I can’t remember when she went from cadet to ensign. A temp role for experience makes some sense, but it still comes off as too much of a leap, especially with no indication of a permanent replacement. Adira would have made more sense in that role, and that isn’t a good fit either.

Worse, Tilly isn’t shown as being bad, she is actually shown as competent in managing the crew. She is also no worse than the others when the “mystery” ship shows up on sensors, she is simply declared incompetent without explaining how, or what she could have done differently. It’s not like anyone else saw the obvious trap coming or had any suggestions not to be captured without a fight.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What makes this worse is the fact that they have science consultants.
Just who the heck are these people if they end up making these ridiculous mistakes?

Mistakes about what exactly? The real science concepts? The fake science concepts? The Star Trek minutia?

 

[The Wormhole]

Oh... worm can opening time!! Generally, I feel that quality of TV series, and movies in general, is going downwards for a decade at least. I was hoping that new Star trek shows would stand above the rest. Sure, production value is great, but the quality of writing is lacking. I believe that addiction to ratings is what’s holding the quality down. How can you plan long term story if you don’t know whether this season is last or not?

Still, that’s NOT an excuse for poor story telling. There was an old list way back about being an evil overlord. One of the rules was “One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.” Perhaps if they took a 10 year old as an advisor, maybe script would’ve been better?

On top of that, and this may be over generalization, SF audience is more concerned with matters of mind than body and have greater imagination, in particular Star trek fans are no longer teenage kids, but rather people with much greater life experience and expectation who are no longer satisfied with CGI tricks. The audience can handle pain and loss, heck, I believe most of us experienced some kind of loss in life, it’s just that writers are not prepared to use it.

I would say you ask simple questions that don't have simple answers. Frankly, I have no idea what set me off for that particular episode, maybe it was just that I finally reached my limit with poor storytelling and after finally venting off I can get back to suspending my thought processes while watching TV. Come to think of it, I did watch Star wars episode 9 couple of weeks ago…

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point at all. This post just comes off as incoherent rambling to me.

The audience can handle pain and loss, heck, I believe most of us experienced some kind of loss in life, it’s just that writers are not prepared to use it.

And what exactly does that have to do with anything discussed in this thread at all?

 

[Deks]

Mistakes about what exactly? The real science concepts? The fake science concepts? The Star Trek minutia?

All three actually.
But more to the point ignoring previously established Trek science concepts and not even attempting to explain WHY things happened the way they have.
Previous Trek did ignore certain things, but at least they made an effort to explain things more often than not, and for the most part STUCK to the established science.
Discovery writers apparently decided to ignore everything completely (And regress things even in some cases) in Season 3.

 

[Nerys Myk]

All three actually.
But more to the point ignoring previously established Trek science concepts and not even attempting to explain WHY things happened the way they have.
Previous Trek did ignore certain things, but at least they made an effort to explain things more often than not, and for the most part STUCK to the established science.
Discovery writers apparently decided to ignore everything completely (And regress things even in some cases) in Season 3.

The science advisors have little say over the fake science or the minutia. Can't lay that at their feet.
I must admit not caring much about the fake science. It's not why I watched. So what fake science did the DISCO writers ignore?
Curious, were these Previous Trek explanations in the episodes or the ancillary materials?

 

[Angry Fanboy]

There are phonebooks with less content than some of these posts.

 

[Obius Markus]

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point at all. This post just comes off as incoherent rambling to me.

And what exactly does that have to do with anything discussed in this thread at all?

Well, you asked what set me off, I tried to explain it. I'm sorry it takes engaging a brain a little and seeing the broader picture and that it is out of scope the topic, but hey, you asked, I answered. To simplify, Discovery was supposed to be prime ribs, but in season three it became stale hamburger thanks to lazy writing.

There are phonebooks with less content than some of these posts.

Couldn't agree more and yet... they keep on spawning. It's almost like commenting that stop signs means you have to stop.

The science advisors have little say over the fake science or the minutia. Can't lay that at their feet.
I must admit not caring much about the fake science. It's not why I watched. So what fake science did the DISCO writers ignore?
Curious, were these Previous Trek explanations in the episodes or the ancillary materials?

I care when characters do something mindboggling stupid just to further the plot or some concept that was established is simply ignored, like beaming through the shields when it is convenient or forgetting that spore drive instantly transports Discovery anywhere in the galaxy.

 

[Obius Markus]

Saru was railroaded into being bad. It’s one thing to make a few mistakes in a new position and another to consistently make out of character mistakes involving oversights.

Saru got over any kind of timidness once he hit alien puberty. He has years of experience as 1st officer. He had been away from his people for years without any issue. His withholding information, assuming a superior doesn’t want to be up to date, and being afraid to share embarrassing information should not have happened.

Tilly actually lead a team once, when she makes her infamous line “that’s the power of math, people!” It is the dark matter asteroid episode. The problem is it’s easily forgotten because it’s not the focus, and we don’t see her leading again, even though real ensigns lead as part of their work. Though I can’t remember when she went from cadet to ensign. A temp role for experience makes some sense, but it still comes off as too much of a leap, especially with no indication of a permanent replacement. Adira would have made more sense in that role, and that isn’t a good fit either.

Worse, Tilly isn’t shown as being bad, she is actually shown as competent in managing the crew. She is also no worse than the others when the “mystery” ship shows up on sensors, she is simply declared incompetent without explaining how, or what she could have done differently. It’s not like anyone else saw the obvious trap coming or had any suggestions not to be captured without a fight.

I agree with Saru, mostly, he still looks too timid for me when dealing with Zarek and Osyraa and I'll admit that shooting Zarek would be against Starfleet regulations, but that's why Discovery has brig, no?
Can't agree with Tilly dealing with "mystery" ship. As first posted, there was a plethora of options that she could have taken, but main one is, don't be where your opponent thinks you are. Just move out of transporter range, Osyraa could never catch up to Discovery, worse if she chases it, she's wasting scarce and precious dilithium in a race she should not be able to win.

 

[Go-Captain]

I agree with Saru, mostly, he still looks too timid for me when dealing with Zarek and Osyraa and I'll admit that shooting Zarek would be against Starfleet regulations, but that's why Discovery has brig, no?

Then they carry a person for an indeterminate amount of time. It's been a little too long, but didn't Saru give the punishment to the local guy, and he decided to let the guy go into the night instead of executing him?

If it were season 1 Saru I would have actually been unsurprised at him just killing the guy given how he dismissed the suffering of the giant tardigrade, and Burnham was the sole source of Starfleet ethics.

Can't agree with Tilly dealing with "mystery" ship. As first posted, there was a plethora of options that she could have taken, but main one is, don't be where your opponent thinks you are. Just move out of transporter range, Osyraa could never catch up to Discovery, worse if she chases it, she's wasting scarce and precious dilithium in a race she should not be able to win.

The problem I see there is the bad guys assume the capture was a done deal no matter what, just that it was too fast with Tilly in the lead. Worse, even if Tilly did the smartest thing which was spore to Starfleet headquarters once they detect the other ship, and spored right to the planet once shields were at 100%, the implication is she would have lost anyway. That also implies going to warp while cloaked, then sporing away would have also failed. One imagines these basic maneuvers would be accounted for.

The real problem is they didn't have any passive defenses against transporters, despite them being so fast and common in that period. As long as the shields are up, no matter how weak, beaming should not work without extenuating circumstances. They should have had a transporter scrambler just like the Chain, in case shields go down, since that's 800 year old technology. Also, it should be possible to give the transporter inhibitor an IFF system so friendly units can beam about and enemies cannot. That's to say nothing of internal offensive systems involving holographics, shields, and programmable matter.

 

[The Wormhole]

To simplify, Discovery was supposed to be prime ribs, but in season three it became stale hamburger thanks to lazy writing.

I mean, I like the show, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I expected it to be "prime ribs." Not sure any Star Trek really qualifies as that. Likewise, even when Star Trek is at its weakest, I'm not sure I'd call it "stale hamburger."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I mean, I like the show, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I expected it to be "prime ribs." Not sure any Star Trek really qualifies as that. Likewise, even when Star Trek is at its weakest, I'm not sure I'd call it "stale hamburger."

Trek is comfort food to some people. And don't mess with the recipe.

 

[The Wormhole]

Trek is comfort food to some people.

Sure, but to me Trek is a bag of potato chips, with the good Trek being a fresh and perfect bag the furthest from the expiry date possible, while the bad Trek is the bag that has the air gone from it and is mere weeks away from expiry date that really doesn't taste right, but is still acceptable to eat all the same.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, I like the show, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I expected it to be "prime ribs." Not sure any Star Trek really qualifies as that. Likewise, even when Star Trek is at its weakest, I'm not sure I'd call it "stale hamburger."

Star Trek is not prime anything. Its popcorn entertainment. Some like butter some like none. Some is cheese and I don't touch it.

But it's not a meal.

 

[Cyrus]

Who is ensing Tilly?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who is ensing Tilly?

She's from the musical episode.

 

[The Wormhole]

Then who's capaint Saru? I'm guessing he has something to do with paint?

 

[dupersuper]

The only serious issue I have with Sarus actions as captain is his making an ensign his XO. I get that he let his last go because of trust issues and they'd established how much he trusts Tilly and she was just temporary until he found a permanent replacement and it provided an opportunity for drama with Tillys character but it was still too much.

Then who's capaint Saru? I'm guessing he has something to do with paint?

No, it's the Saru who refuses to wear a hat.

 

[ScottJ85]

Shame that it all comes down to is poor story telling and overlooking plot holes for sake of story arc.

Not entirely sure I agree with this. Tilly losing the ship, and Saru getting way too emotional over meeting another Kelpien felt like deliberate choices to set Burnham up for eventually taking command herself. It's fine that you don't like it, but I don't think that makes it lazy writing.

Also, I think it was worth it to see Doug Jones out of the Kelpien makeup and showing off his acting.

 

[Go-Captain]

Not entirely sure I agree with this. Tilly losing the ship, and Saru getting way too emotional over meeting another Kelpien felt like deliberate choices to set Burnham up for eventually taking command herself. It's fine that you don't like it, but I don't think that makes it lazy writing.

Also, I think it was worth it to see Doug Jones out of the Kelpien makeup and showing off his acting.

They’re completely deliberate choices and that’s not the problem, the issue is the setup is not all there. It would have been easy to give us scenes of the Emerald Chain doing setup work to make the Discovery capture go easily, scenes which actually explain why it looks easy when it goes down, and what mistakes Tilly actually made. It would have been a lot more interesting than some of the fighting we got.

They kind of setup why Saru trusts Tilly, but it’s a huge leap to go from arguing against protecting Burnham’s reputation so the crew isn’t dismantled, to making her temp executive officer. It also doesn’t make sense for Saru to risk the entire crew’s reputation for Burnham’s, or seek Tilly’s council. Some of his later mistakes are more reasonable but they become too consistent for a seasoned officer.

I think it would have been better to skip the Saru is a bad captain arc and instead have him suddenly decide to take a leave of absence so he can go home with Su’kal. I think meeting him and both of them connecting with, what for them is, a new Kelpian society would have made for some interesting scenes if it had been given more than a few seconds of screen time. It just needs to be made clear it is temporary so it isn’t some sort of change of heart.