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The case against capaint Saru and ensing Tilly

Obius Markus

Ensign
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To impress, this is only my opinion and I apologize in advance if anyone is offended.
I never had much sympathy for Saru or Tilly, but since S03E11, I have a lot of trouble digesting Saru as captain and Tilly as anything but very junior crew member that shouldn't speak to anyone outranking her withouth being spoken to first.
Why Saru as captain is bad? He's overly timid as we can see in previous episodes. First, by letting the defeated Zareh go. You don't leave a threat like him walking around. By letting him go you're just enabling him to do more and more damage. He should have been killed and Saru, as Captain, should have done it himself. "We're Starfleet, leave criminals go free so they can do more damage." Great marketing. Second, once Osyraa started bombarding Books homeworld there's really on excuse not to engage her, especially after her weapons were disabled. Heck, Discovery should have pursued and knocked her out of warp and destroyed head of Emerald chain right there and then. "We're Starfleet, the bigger criminal you are, the sooner you can go free!!!" Even more great marketing. Later he becomes too emotional about seeing another Kelpian that's been dead for over half a century. Letting his emotions cloud the judgment is one of the cardinal sins that captain of starship does not have as luxury. But, most questionable decision was making ensgin Tilly his XO. He should have known that she just wasn't up to the task. I'll get into that later. By her own words, she didn't even finish leadership training course. Just asking her to become his XO shows serious, nay criminal, lack of judgment. I don't blame her for accepting. Once promotion was offered, turning it down, regardless of circumstances, is a black mark in your record. There probably won't be another opportunity for career advancement or it will come years after rest her class has already advanced more gradually. Saru put her in bad position and really left her no choice.
Why Tilly as XO is bad? Too much responosibility, not enough skill and experience in a nutshell. She never commanded even an away team, there's no track record of her taking leadrship position anywhere in the entire series. Not even her science team. She can analyze as good or even better than other science officers, but she never led even a project. As XO her duties are ensuring the ship is functioning properly (regular maintenance), supplies are at optimum levels, crew is well trained (especiall cross training). While we see some glimpse of Tilly handling those duties, when shit hit the fan, crew is woefully unprepared to handle the challenge. How they managed to survive so far is beyond me. Lack of her experience shows the most when dealing with Osyraa. First of, with spore drive there's really no sense in keeping staiton in front of Veridian Nebula. They can instantly jump there from... anywhere. Why didn't they jump to Starfleet headquarters had their shields repaired in half the time and been ready to jump in whenever they are needed?
When they detected "Federation ship" that gives good codes, but won't hail them... oh man, so many options here. Cloak and move away from them? Jump on the OTHER side of Veridian Nebula and still be at staion to assist Saru? Jump away from them after first comms exchange? Don't lower your shields? While we're at it, where is the freaking ship security?! Why is nobody armed?! Why isn't Spore chamber constantly guarded? It's the most important strategic asset Federation has and it has zero protection?! Why didn't Saru request more security personnel? Why isn't selfdestruct armed and on dead man's switch?! So many options and yet Tilly chose none of them.
At best, she's whiz kid that loves to explore. At worst... well... she lost Discovery.
After the dust has settled Saru should have been demoted and removed as captain of Discovery and Tilly should be demoted to midshipman and prohibited from command track. Also, unless cricumstances are extraordinary, no crew would ever again be happy with captain, even acting captin, that lost his/her ship. Sadly, we don't even see Board of inquiry.
Also, as just another gripe, those turbolifts and inner workings of discovery are COMPLETLY out of scale with the actual size of the ship. Both that and sheer amount of wasted space is utterly mindboggling. I get that they want wider corridors, but space on spaceship is at premium. More space means more air is needed, more armor is needed, bigger shield emitters since you have more space to protect. I don't belive that designers had that much wasted space in mind when creating Discovery.
 
To impress, this is only my opinion and I apologize in advance if anyone is offended.
I never had much sympathy for Saru or Tilly, but since S03E11, I have a lot of trouble digesting Saru as captain and Tilly as anything but very junior crew member that shouldn't speak to anyone outranking her withouth being spoken to first.
Why Saru as captain is bad? He's overly timid as we can see in previous episodes. First, by letting the defeated Zareh go. You don't leave a threat like him walking around. By letting him go you're just enabling him to do more and more damage. He should have been killed and Saru, as Captain, should have done it himself. "We're Starfleet, leave criminals go free so they can do more damage." Great marketing.

Starfleet is NOT in the business of executing people if they have a choice not to do so.
We've seen other SF captains letting other criminals go for their crimes (mainly because they had no other choice).

What Saru 'probably' should have done is incarcerated Zareh, but in the absence of other Starfleet officers and facilities in the area (and no way of knowing where the Federation disappeared to) his only other option was to put Zareh in the brig on Discovery... and I'm not sure bringing Zareh (a guy from the 31st century with a knowledge to match which he may be able to use to escape) to the ship would have been the smartest things to do (especially after what he threatened to do)... so Saru's choice was to execute Zareh (which clearly goes against Starfleet/Federation regulations and how evolved future people would behave) or letting him go (plus, with Georgiou giving him a good beating probably scared him enough to make him run to Osyraa - possibly as a 'last resort' - he might not have had contact with the Emerald Chain prior to that).

Second, once Osyraa started bombarding Books homeworld there's really on excuse not to engage her, especially after her weapons were disabled. Heck, Discovery should have pursued and knocked her out of warp and destroyed head of Emerald chain right there and then. "We're Starfleet, the bigger criminal you are, the sooner you can go free!!!" Even more great marketing.

Discovery was toeing a fine line here and were explicitly told by Vance to NOT engage Osyraa or the Emerald Chain. Booker's ship however was not Federation, so they thought that they could get away with this kind of tactic.
Unfortunately, Osyraa took Booker's scout ship attacking her as Starfleet engaging her anyway, so this particular ruse didn't work, and I think you may be right and that Discovery should have disabled the Veridian's warp engines and other systems (such as communications, transporters and possibly security systems) and left Booker's ship to guard them while they quickly jump to Federation HQ and ask Vance to send reinforcements before jumping back and waiting for the ships to arrive (realistically, sending a security detail to the Veridian would not be possible since the team would be very small vs a compliment of what's probably 1000 Emerald Chain troops, or more 0 - sure, clever tactics could possibly work, but the crew had little experience with 32nd century technology and ships, so sending a team over to the Veridian probably might not have been the best idea).

Another problem is, we don't know if Veridian would have managed to send a signal out to other Emerald Chain ships... and if that happened and they got back before Starfleet sent their reinforcements, then Kweijaan would have been in danger along with Discovery (although, by then, Kweijaan could have restored its shields along with Booker's ship which could have just kept periodically shooting at Veridian to keep its systems disabled in case the ship was repairing itself).

Trouble is, the writers don't really think along those lines... so they tend to go for dumber approaches.

Later he becomes too emotional about seeing another Kelpian that's been dead for over half a century. Letting his emotions cloud the judgment is one of the cardinal sins that captain of starship does not have as luxury.

We've seen other SF captains being compromised by their emotions (take Archer for example when he flew off into the Expanse and for the first few months he was in rage mode to the point where he put a pirate into the airlock... although fortunately, he was able to stop).
Or take Janeway for that matter... who ended up being on an emotional rollercoaster during Year Of Hell... or when she went to hunt for Ransom.
Sisko also went against his better judgment (letting his emotions to get the best of him) when he went to Garak for help to try and get the Romulans to join.
Picard was at times in denial about his encounter with the Borg and was emotionally compromised (which Starfleet used to sideline him... however, as it was noted, Picard's insight into the Borg despite his emotional state would have been an asset - and he DID show his compromised emotions when he didn't want to immediately consider self-destructing the Enterprise-E when the Borg were on the verge of taking it over).

Saru was cut off from Kaminar for a very long time and he comes from a species that forms deep connection to each other. Leaving Kaminar was one of the hardest things he did... so him getting emotional over another Kelpien in a message... well, its understandable... but this wasn't purely about the Kelpien... it was also about the source of the Burn (which had to be addressed), and don't get me wrong, I DO get the fact that he may have reacted a bit strongly over seeing another Kelpien in a message (after all this time, you'd think he would see another Kelpien at SF/Federation HQ while Discovery was undergoing a refit).

As for him being timid in the first 2 seasons (this was mainly BEFORE he went through the Va'harai), but since taking the captains seat I don't think he behaved erratically... and it was good to finally see a non-human captain for a change being given the spotlight.

But, most questionable decision was making ensgin Tilly his XO. He should have known that she just wasn't up to the task. I'll get into that later. By her own words, she didn't even finish leadership training course. Just asking her to become his XO shows serious, nay criminal, lack of judgment. I don't blame her for accepting. Once promotion was offered, turning it down, regardless of circumstances, is a black mark in your record. There probably won't be another opportunity for career advancement or it will come years after rest her class has already advanced more gradually. Saru put her in bad position and really left her no choice.

To be fair, he asked Tilly to be his TEMPORARY XO until he could find a permanent replacement. But in this instance I have to agree that turning to her for this position was poor judgment on his part.
All your points for why she shouldn't be chosen in the first place stand. Nillsson should have been asked (given her rank of Commander) or anyone else on the bridge who has a higher rank thank Tilly and more command experience... Bryce for example would make a good temporary XO before choosing Nillson for example.
Bad writing.

Why Tilly as XO is bad? Too much responosibility, not enough skill and experience in a nutshell. She never commanded even an away team, there's no track record of her taking leadrship position anywhere in the entire series. Not even her science team. She can analyze as good or even better than other science officers, but she never led even a project. As XO her duties are ensuring the ship is functioning properly (regular maintenance), supplies are at optimum levels, crew is well trained (especiall cross training). While we see some glimpse of Tilly handling those duties, when shit hit the fan, crew is woefully unprepared to handle the challenge. How they managed to survive so far is beyond me. Lack of her experience shows the most when dealing with Osyraa.

I don't think responsibility was Tilly's issue. It was low rank, she didn't complete the command training course and lack of experience for the most part.
She DID take some responsibility in the past on science projects and was part of a team (especially in the Dark Matter asteroid sample)... which showed she was not only willing to take calculated risks but also demonstrated initiative (not to mention that at the time, that Dark Matter asteroid was said that it could revolutionize their understanding of the universe and create better energy sources - wish the writers actually went back to that and used it for the crew to 'prepare' a bit better after arriving in the 32nd century and learning of the Burn - heck, there's your better power source without dilithium or M/AM - but to be fair, they WERE able to get the same energy output as the power of a supernovae at the end of Season 2 by using Queen Po's design for recrystalizing dilithium along with the Spore Drive - which eliminated their use of the Spore Drive for jumping, but not as a power source, and Stamets wasn't needed for that either - which means that SF could have reverse engineered that method to develop a modern power source while Disco was being refitted ... for example).

As for her lack of experience with Osyraa... honestly, I think she handled Osyraa well. And to be fair, I don't think Osyraa beaming onto Discovery can be attributed directly to Tilly.
That sort of 'just happened' and was mainly writers fault who forgot about half a dozen safety features SF ships had (or would have had by the 32nd century) which would be completely automated and prevent hostile beam-ins or takeovers to begin with (but Trek if full of even worse takeover episodes, to this one wasn't particularly bad - it was bad yes, but we've seen worse).

She could have potentially asked of all crew to arm themselves the moment they learned it was Osyraa's ship and stall her by talking to her and give her crew time to prepare for a potential hostile takeover.
That said, she also had an option of just jumping to the other side of the nebula... or far enough away (say to Federation HQ to bring reinforcements) and just come back for the away team the moment Osyraa arrived - or at least TRIED to (that is if Stamets would have listened - he DID object vehemently at leaving Culber on that planet).

First of, with spore drive there's really no sense in keeping staiton in front of Veridian Nebula. They can instantly jump there from... anywhere. Why didn't they jump to Starfleet headquarters had their shields repaired in half the time and been ready to jump in whenever they are needed?
When they detected "Federation ship" that gives good codes, but won't hail them... oh man, so many options here. Cloak and move away from them? Jump on the OTHER side of Veridian Nebula and still be at staion to assist Saru? Jump away from them after first comms exchange? Don't lower your shields? While we're at it, where is the freaking ship security?! Why is nobody armed?! Why isn't Spore chamber constantly guarded? It's the most important strategic asset Federation has and it has zero protection?! Why didn't Saru request more security personnel? Why isn't selfdestruct armed and on dead man's switch?! So many options and yet Tilly chose none of them.
At best, she's whiz kid that loves to explore. At worst... well... she lost Discovery.

Already addressed most of this in my upper reply, but to be fair, the whole scenario was BADLY WRITTEN.
Honestly, some of the ensigns on Enterprise-D and Voyager might have probably fared a lot better under same circumstances, but its also possible they were trained differently than 23rd century cadets were... and Tilly was a science officer mainly.
Again, I agree about Saru making a bad call about making her temporary XO... but mainly, Discovery writers are largely to blame here for MANY things... and if they decided to have taken things in a different direction, the characters might have been written as competent (as they technically should be).
So even if Saru made a poor judgment in terms of picking Tilly, the writers could have written her to have command insight and handle the situation with Osyraa well... instead, things 'just happened' and nothing really worked as it should have because of the drama.

After the dust has settled Saru should have been demoted and removed as captain of Discovery and Tilly should be demoted to midshipman and prohibited from command track. Also, unless cricumstances are extraordinary, no crew would ever again be happy with captain, even acting captin, that lost his/her ship. Sadly, we don't even see Board of inquiry.

Mitigating and extraordinary circumstances here. Saru didn't really do anything horribly bad to be fair (sans his decision to make Tilly acting XO - that was bad judgment).
Also, in the end, Discovery DID solve the mystery of the Burn and ensured it won't happen again, and they also destroyed the Veridian (and killed Osyraa) which fractured the Emerald Chain - plus the Federation gained a new/abundant source of Dilithium to help it towards recovery (which they figured out how to harvest as well - Disco was tasked taking the Dilithium to several Federation and non-aligned worlds).

The Ferengi managed to take over the Enterprise-D using 2 Klingon BOP relics to be fair... so by that analogy, the crew should have lost confidence in Riker a long time ago.

Heck, Riker should have been court marshaled for his negligence fighting back the Duras sisters BOP in Generations movie. Even with shields down, it would have been a simple matter to fire a full spread of torpedoes and phasers onto that ship and pulverize it... but all we saw was 1 measly phaser shot... and 1 photon torpedo which DID destroy the ship after the crew was able to decloak it - quite frankly both Riker and Worf should have been court marshaled for negligence.

How Riker was offered his own commands was quite honestly besides me. But again, that was shoddy writing. And if TNG era can get away with it... I think Saru's 'infraction' (which is minor by comparison) could be forgiven - although the way Dscovery writers injected stupidities into this season while ignoring commonly established things without even attempting to explaining it in a way that makes a modicum of sense was almost 'criminal'.

Plus, Vance DID offer Burnham the captain seat in the end... and he didn't wait for Saru to get back. Its possible that Vance decided Saru wasn't quite the right fit for Discovery either way and already spoke to him in private but chose not to say anything directly to Burnham... but its possible Saru will be offered his own command of another 32nd century ship in Season 4 (perhaps the USS Voyager-J and go on joint missions with Discovery).

Also, as just another gripe, those turbolifts and inner workings of discovery are COMPLETLY out of scale with the actual size of the ship. Both that and sheer amount of wasted space is utterly mindboggling. I get that they want wider corridors, but space on spaceship is at premium. More space means more air is needed, more armor is needed, bigger shield emitters since you have more space to protect. I don't belive that designers had that much wasted space in mind when creating Discovery.

To be fair, we saw similarly sized chasms in the first 2 seasons on Discovery and the Enterprise (in both Primary and Kelvin timelines).
And yes, they don't make sense. They ARE too vast for ships of those sizes (not to mention the fact a Warp core was ejected while scraping the walls... are the people making the SFX insane - heck, why not consult with someone who knows Trek on how to portray things properly?).

However, we do know that in the 30th century (during the temporal cold war), a time pod with a historian went back to the mid 22nd century and was recovered by NX-01.
While the pod was badly damaged and emitted temporal radiation, it was bigger on the inside than on the outside.
So, at least since getting to the 32nd century, having vast chasms for DOT's and turbolifts would actually make sense IF that technology was incorporated as part of Discovery's retrofit (and for the first 2 seasons, well, we could say the SFX department made a ridiculous error - wouldn't be the first time - remember phasers being shot from a torpedo tube in TNG... or phasers being shot from Voyager's airlock or other sections of the ship that didn't have phaser strips?).

Problem is, nobody mentioned that Discovery was outfitted with this technology (which would indeed be useful for putting in more power generators, or bigger/stronger shield emitters) even in passing (which would take all of a few extra 5 or 10 seconds of lines)... so reconciling it is very difficult. Maybe we will get a more extensive explanation for all this in the upcoming season... but given the writing in Season 3 in some parts and lack of proper technological advancement for the Federation as a whole (still using Warp and dilitihum/M/AM), I wouldn't hold my breadth... but who knows.
 
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First, by letting the defeated Zareh go. You don't leave a threat like him walking around. By letting him go you're just enabling him to do more and more damage. He should have been killed and Saru, as Captain, should have done it himself. "We're Starfleet, leave criminals go free so they can do more damage." Great marketing. Second, once Osyraa started bombarding Books homeworld there's really on excuse not to engage her, especially after her weapons were disabled. Heck, Discovery should have pursued and knocked her out of warp and destroyed head of Emerald chain right there and then. "We're Starfleet, the bigger criminal you are, the sooner you can go free!!!" Even more great marketing.
New to Star Trek? That sort of stuff goes on all the time in the other shows.
I don't blame her for accepting. Once promotion was offered, turning it down, regardless of circumstances, is a black mark in your record. There probably won't be another opportunity for career advancement
It's Starfleet, there's always opportunity for career advancement if you turn down a promotion. Riker turned down three promotion offers before finally accepting command of the Titan.
Why isn't selfdestruct armed and on dead man's switch?!
Pretty sure having the self destruct be that easy is only asking for trouble.
 
The writers went out of their way to bury Saru as captain and Tilly as first officer, all to set up Michael taking over as captain.

It's one of a number of irritating aspects of S3.
 
The writers went out of their way to bury Saru as captain and Tilly as first officer, all to set up Michael taking over as captain.

It's one of a number of irritating aspects of S3.
I feel bad for both actors and their characters. If it was handed differently, more gradually it could have worked.
That must have been some moment.
I feel offended when shows that have long standing audiences, that basically have people growing up with them, treat that same audience as kids. For some reason that episode really hit my nerve and worked me up. Perhaps it was subconcious buildup of frustration with the series that I had to vent somewhere and what better place than here?
Nah. Lack of paragraphs and proofreading is lazy writing .
Ah, a subtle jab from sarcastic member, I guess my initiation is complete?
 
I feel offended
If you actually feel offended by plot developments in a TV show, you may be too invested in said show.
For some reason that episode really hit my nerve and worked me up. Perhaps it was subconcious buildup of frustration with the series that I had to vent somewhere and what better place than here?
'Kay. But as I already pointed out, these are all things that went on on the other Treks as well. Did it ever hit your nerve and work you up whenever this stuff went on in the other shows? Or are you just lashing out at Disco because it's the current series and therefore sucks because of that?
 
If you actually feel offended by plot developments in a TV show, you may be too invested in said show.

'Kay. But as I already pointed out, these are all things that went on on the other Treks as well. Did it ever hit your nerve and work you up whenever this stuff went on in the other shows? Or are you just lashing out at Disco because it's the current series and therefore sucks because of that?
Oh... worm can opening time!! Generally, I feel that quality of TV series, and movies in general, is going downwards for a decade at least. I was hoping that new Star trek shows would stand above the rest. Sure, production value is great, but the quality of writing is lacking. I believe that addiction to ratings is what’s holding the quality down. How can you plan long term story if you don’t know whether this season is last or not?

Still, that’s NOT an excuse for poor story telling. There was an old list way back about being an evil overlord. One of the rules was “One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.” Perhaps if they took a 10 year old as an advisor, maybe script would’ve been better?

On top of that, and this may be over generalization, SF audience is more concerned with matters of mind than body and have greater imagination, in particular Star trek fans are no longer teenage kids, but rather people with much greater life experience and expectation who are no longer satisfied with CGI tricks. The audience can handle pain and loss, heck, I believe most of us experienced some kind of loss in life, it’s just that writers are not prepared to use it.

I would say you ask simple questions that don't have simple answers. Frankly, I have no idea what set me off for that particular episode, maybe it was just that I finally reached my limit with poor storytelling and after finally venting off I can get back to suspending my thought processes while watching TV. Come to think of it, I did watch Star wars episode 9 couple of weeks ago…
 
Back to topic
Deks did, indeed, correct my errors and your points are spot on, starting with reverse engineering Discovery to Riker. Guess my TNG knowledge is slightly rusty. I belive it's time for TNG re-run marathon, it's only a matter of finding enough time.
Shame that it all comes down to is poor story telling and overlooking plot holes for sake of story arc.
 
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