The Cardassians (The Wounded and Chain of Command)

[indolover]

One thing I don't understand is why the Federation didn't take the Cardassians on? In both The Wounded and Chain of Command, the Cardassians were willing to forgo the treaty and resume war against the Federation.

I know the Admiral in The Wounded told Picard that the Federation is not ready for a new sustained conflict, but I don't get how that's the case. If he was referring to the Borg attack at Wolf 359, well for all we know that was just 1% of all Starfleet ships, so in the grand scheme would that make the Federation defenseless? lol.. Most likely, it was just the Federation "home fleet" that Locutus destroyed, which guards Earth and the other core Federation worlds.

We also saw in The Wounded that the Cardassians were technologically behind the Federation. So how would a war have been so costly?

 

[od0_ital]

It would have been a P/R nightmare for the Federation, since they're supposed to be the good guys, they can't go out & pick fights with the Cardassians.

Instead, they kept goin' with diplomacy & tried to keep conflicts on the "skirmish" level rather than an all out war.

 

[sonak]

Yes, technically the Cardassians' actions in both of these episodes could have led to war.

However, Picard's warning in "the wounded" probably was enough to get them to back off for a while.


In "Chain of Command," thanks to Riker and Jellico, the Federation basically won the encounter with the Cardassians without the need for escalation.

It was win-win. The Federation demonstrated their strength and resolve AND avoided war.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Tactically the Enterprise could have beaten those three Galors in battle. Galors pre-Dominion war have consistentially shown to be weak.

Any of the supporting ships along the border could have warped to an invasion point and easily removed the Cardassian infestation. They could also have planted cobalt diselenide booby traps on the target worlds. The Federation clearly had a better hand to play in the standoff.

In this respect Chain of Command is nearly as stupid as Unification part II.

 

[Tomalak]

Why would the Federation want to play into their hands by provoking war?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

One thing I don't understand is why the Federation didn't take the Cardassians on? In both The Wounded and Chain of Command, the Cardassians were willing to forgo the treaty and resume war against the Federation.

I know the Admiral in The Wounded told Picard that the Federation is not ready for a new sustained conflict, but I don't get how that's the case. If he was referring to the Borg attack at Wolf 359, well for all we know that was just 1% of all Starfleet ships, so in the grand scheme would that make the Federation defenseless? lol.. Most likely, it was just the Federation "home fleet" that Locutus destroyed, which guards Earth and the other core Federation worlds.

We also saw in The Wounded that the Cardassians were technologically behind the Federation. So how would a war have been so costly?

Bear in mind that the Federation had been involved in two conflicts prior to this, in addition to the damage caused by the Borg incursion.

The border wars with the Cardassians are hinted to have been a long, drawn-out conflict. Not as destructive, perhaps, as the Borg incursion, but certainly an ongoing drain on resources.

The second conflict was with the Tzenkethi. We do not know exactly when in the 24th century that war was, but we do know that Leyton was only one rank away from admiral at the time, and commanded a ship that fought in that war. It would not be unreasonable to place the Tzenkethi war as having been not too long prior to the beginning of TNG. Which would place it concurrent to the Cardassian border wars.

Regarding the Galor-class ship--it is certainly not a match for a Galaxy-class ship. However, I would not want to be facing several of them at a time, given what we know about Cardassian tactics and strategy (which use subterfuge to make even their technologically less-advanced ships more threatening than they "ought" to be solely according to their stats). A ship less than a Galaxy-class could be threatened by a group of them, smaller ships picked off entirely. In numbers, a fleet of them could be dangerous.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Tactically the Enterprise could have beaten those three Galors in battle. Galors pre-Dominion war have consistentially shown to be weak.

Any of the supporting ships along the border could have warped to an invasion point and easily removed the Cardassian infestation. They could also have planted cobalt diselenide booby traps on the target worlds. The Federation clearly had a better hand to play in the standoff.

In this respect Chain of Command is nearly as stupid as Unification part II.

Important note: the whole cobalt diselenide thing wasn't even mentioned until 2373. So thats a non-point.

The Galor wasn't exactly 'weak.' Its about a third of the size of a Galaxy. That means its proportionally of equal power.

To the OP: The Federation is a huge governmental body, and any standing domestic fleet would be mostly support ships. Anything suited to combat would be posted to borders or hotspots. And since they wouldn't send supply ships or training ships to go battle the largest threat in the known universe, its safe to say Wolf 359 was a bloody nose to Starfleet.

Additionally, even though they aren't as advanced as a Nebula or Galaxy class (the only two ships we specifically saw them pitted against in the episode), they could easily be equivalents to the Excelsiors that make up most of Starfleet.

Then there's a thousand ways to seize the advantage over a more technologically advanced foe. Particularly one as unlikely to seek war as the Federation. A quick move, use of area denial systems, and picking your battles could cause enough bloodshed to force a peace. And pick up some contested systems along the way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not to mention the use of cobalt diselinide would be a war crime, one that Sisko was not punished for as he should have been. They are people. People can be in a place where they have no right to be--but they are not an infestation to be slaughtered cruelly with a nerve agent, which is what that substance is to Cardassians.

 

[Tomalak]

Not to mention the use of cobalt diselinide would be a war crime, one that Sisko was not punished for as he should have been. They are people. People can be in a place where they have no right to be--but they are not an infestation to be slaughtered cruelly with a nerve agent, which is what that substance is to Cardassians.

Well quite. Xerxes1979 seems to come from the Jack Bauer school of diplomatic relations.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Not to mention the use of cobalt diselinide would be a war crime, one that Sisko was not punished for as he should have been. They are people. People can be in a place where they have no right to be--but they are not an infestation to be slaughtered cruelly with a nerve agent, which is what that substance is to Cardassians.

Well quite. Xerxes1979 seems to come from the Jack Bauer school of diplomatic relations.

How would it be a war crime? If the biosphere was already saturated with the poison, it would be the Cardassians who chose their own deaths. How is that not both a clever and ethical defense of a planet?

Also I still think those Galors would be destroyed. The Cardassians were the ones on the tight schedule. The Enterprise could have easy fought a running battle at high warp, seperating the various targets and buying time. If the Galors were acting as their own troop transports the losses would be even more unfavorable even if the Enterprise sacraficed herself in the battle.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Not to mention the use of cobalt diselinide would be a war crime, one that Sisko was not punished for as he should have been. They are people. People can be in a place where they have no right to be--but they are not an infestation to be slaughtered cruelly with a nerve agent, which is what that substance is to Cardassians.

Well quite. Xerxes1979 seems to come from the Jack Bauer school of diplomatic relations.

How would it be a war crime? If the biosphere was already saturated with the poison, it would be the Cardassians who chose their own deaths. How is that not both a clever and ethical defense of a planet?

Also I still think those Galors would be destroyed. The Cardassians were the ones on the tight schedule. The Enterprise could have easy fought a running battle at high warp, seperating the various targets and buying time. If the Galors were acting as their own troop transports the losses would be even more unfavorable even if the Enterprise sacraficed herself in the battle.

Its just like using nerve gas. Even if you're just letting it float around idly, its still WMD.

And no matter how much we like the Enterprise, in a fight the Cardassian fleet would win. You aren't going to invade and occupy a strategic sector with any less than thirty capital ships. And even just a third of that would still be able to overwhelm a single Galaxy Class.

Lastly: The Cardassians have much more willpower than the Federation. They would accept the losses of such an operation while the UFP would not.

 

[Timo]

I guess we should also note that the Cardassians do subscribe to the Jack Bauer school of doctrines. Ships that stand no chance in a firefight with Starfleet could easily massacre Federation citizens on frontier colonies (whose isolation is proven time and again in both TNG and DS9) and then withdraw before Starfleet arrives. "Dreadnought" style planetkiller missiles could be used as well. And unconventional mass destruction was considered to be right down the Cardassian alley in "Chain of Command".

With such things, one could win a war without having to wage it. "Give us these planets or you lose a random twenty of yours" is a perfectly workable diplomatic approach to expanding one's empire, unless the side being shaken down has too much invested in the planets being asked, or the side doing the shaking makes the mistake of actually performing the hideous deeds he threatens the other side with.

Also to be considered is the early DS9 evidence that Cardassia had a lot of allies or satellites whose fate would also have to be decided if the UFP went to war against Cardassia proper. The region might be worse off as the result of a war than without one - some UFP-haters like the Klaestron from "Dax" already seem to have emerged from the first war, and might have discouraged another one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

But the fact remains, the Cardassians didn't want war - they tried to trick the Federation into it, so they would look like they were the aggressors. So what possible reason would the Federation have had to rise to their bait? They didn't want a war either.

I just don't understand Xerxes1979's reasoning that the Enterprise should have started an interstellar conflict for no real reason. It's like he or she has never watched Star Trek before. The Federation wasn't threatened in any real way, and a few years later they signed a peace treaty which lasted until a lunatic with delusions of grandeur signed Cardassia over to the Dominion.

 

[sonak]

But the fact remains, the Cardassians didn't want war - they tried to trick the Federation into it, so they would look like they were the aggressors. So what possible reason would the Federation have had to rise to their bait? They didn't want a war either.

I just don't understand Xerxes1979's reasoning that the Enterprise should have started an interstellar conflict for no real reason. It's like he or she has never watched Star Trek before. The Federation wasn't threatened in any real way, and a few years later they signed a peace treaty which lasted until a lunatic with delusions of grandeur signed Cardassia over to the Dominion.

um, your statement is contradictory. saying "they don't want war, so they try to trick the UFP into starting one" doesn't make sense.


If you don't want a war, you're certainly not going to trick the other side into starting one, because what do you end up with? (drumroll)..... A WAR.

(I assume you meant they didn't want to be seen as aggressors, which is different. Even dictators like Hitler or Stalin didn't want to be SEEN as aggressors, even though they were.)


At any rate, I think the Cardassians were willing to RISK war for getting the upper hand, but didn't necessarily welcome it.

However, as I pointed out, in both these episodes, the Enterprise helps the Federation gain the upper hand instead, getting the Cardassians to back down.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

One thing I don't understand is why the Federation didn't take the Cardassians on? In both The Wounded and Chain of Command, the Cardassians were willing to forgo the treaty and resume war against the Federation.

I know the Admiral in The Wounded told Picard that the Federation is not ready for a new sustained conflict, but I don't get how that's the case. If he was referring to the Borg attack at Wolf 359, well for all we know that was just 1% of all Starfleet ships, so in the grand scheme would that make the Federation defenseless? lol.. Most likely, it was just the Federation "home fleet" that Locutus destroyed, which guards Earth and the other core Federation worlds.

We also saw in The Wounded that the Cardassians were technologically behind the Federation. So how would a war have been so costly?

Even if you're in a somewhat superior position, people still happen to die in war. So an uneasy peace is preferable to war nine out of ten times or so. In principle, you don't go to war unless you really really have to.

The Federation didn't have to go to war in The Wounded or Chain of Command. It was a different matter in DS9's Call to Arms though. Because the Federation really had run out of other options there.

 

[Xerxes1979]

@Tomalak

Listen I am not pro-war or naive. I am simply trying to answer the OP's question of why the Federation was supposedly so weak in Chain of Command.

Tactically I don't think the hypothetical "Battle of Minos Korva" was thought out very well by the Cardassians.

Starfleet certainly would be willing to shed military blood to defend civilian life after the experience of Setlik III.

 

[Tomalak]

um, your statement is contradictory. saying "they don't want war, so they try to trick the UFP into starting one" doesn't make sense.

(I assume you meant they didn't want to be seen as aggressors, which is different. Even dictators like Hitler or Stalin didn't want to be SEEN as aggressors, even though they were.)

Yeah, I didn't make myself clear. I thought the intention was to make the Federation appear to be the aggressors, which would strengthen the Cardassians' hand when it came to negotiations. If the Federation backed down, the Cardassians benefit. If they rise to the bait and attack, it benefits the Cardassians. What they didn't want was to be exposed, which of course, our heroic Enterprise does.

Listen I am not pro-war or naive. I am simply trying to answer the OP's question of why the Federation was supposedly so weak in Chain of Command.

I don't see that they did act weakly at all. They exposed the Cardassian plot, got them to withdraw, and Picard was returned. No one died, and the peace was preserved. The Federation is perfectly happy with that settlement. As we saw in Deep Space Nine and the next season of TNG, the treaty was successful and the DMZ was established. And arguably, the military blunder here strengthened the Cardassian civilian movement, which eventually took power by the beginning of DS9's fourth season.

My question is still why would the Federation wish to rise to the bait and resume hostilities? It doesn't benefit them in any conceivable way. Talking about massacring Cardassian planets with nerve agents is an insane overreaction! It's something the Terran Empire would do, not the Federation as we know it.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

One of the recent novels featured an alternate universe where Picard died during BOBW, leaving Riker the permanent captain of the Enterprise. His handling of the Phoenix Incident is rather different from Picard's, and the result is not good. The Cardassians might not be able to conquer the Federation, but they're more than capable of seizing the territory they want and then holding the line.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Its just like using nerve gas. Even if you're just letting it float around idly, its still WMD.

For a Cardassian, it's not just like nerve gas...it IS nerve gas, just like the substances that have been used against people on this planet; it's not just a comparison.

Regarding the Federation willingness to stake their lives to prevent a civilian massacre, I actually have my doubts on that one. They had no problem with going ahead and handing their worlds over to the Cardassians even after they KNEW their people wouldn't evacuate. And they've never had a problem letting "lesser" species die to satisfy some warped version of the Prime Directive. They can be every bit as politically expedient as the Cardassian Union when they want to be; they just do a better job of fooling themselves.