The Buried Age

[ProtoAvatar]

From the new civilizations introduced in 'The buried age', the carnelian regancy and the ~plant people are interesting enough to support one or two future books (standalone adventures), but the only ones who have the potential to become major players are the manlaroth.

 

[JD]

So? Not every race has to play a huge recurring role.

 

[EmperorKalan]

I'll admit that including Janeway was a bit of a reach, and my editor resisted it, but there was indication in First Contact and the novel Homecoming that Janeway and Picard were previously acquainted and on friendly terms (and Janeway's Picard imitation in "Scorpion" offers canonical support that she knew him personally).

You meant Nemesis, not First Contact, right? Otherwise I'm blanking on the scene you're referring to there.

 

[Christopher]

^Oops, you're right. I meant Nemesis.

 

[garoo1980]

My only complaint was I found the book pacing a little off. As I said earlier the battle at the beginning and trial were both massive page turners. And definitely the last 150 pages or so were great too, but the middle dragged a little. But I guess some people on this thread liked those parts best so it must just be personal taste.

For the record I didn't find the cameos too bad. I'm not sure Geordi's added anything to the character but the rest definitely did. Data and Troi most definitely.

And of course the love story aspect of it really showed how Picard became the dedicate officer we know. Not to say he wasn't already but it makes total sense.

And correct me if I'm wrong Chris but surely that was the challenge writing this one. Fitting it into the continuity right up to Farpoint, pushing the character, but still having him come back to where we first met him.

 

[Christopher]

For the record I didn't find the cameos too bad. I'm not sure Geordi's added anything to the character but the rest definitely did.

Technically Geordi doesn't even appear in the book. His first meeting with Picard (as described in "The Next Phase") is alluded to, but not shown.

And of course the love story aspect of it really showed how Picard became the dedicate officer we know. Not to say he wasn't already but it makes total sense.

And correct me if I'm wrong Chris but surely that was the challenge writing this one. Fitting it into the continuity right up to Farpoint, pushing the character, but still having him come back to where we first met him.

My model was Barry Levinson's Young Sherlock Holmes, which offered a conjectural explanation for why Holmes grew up to be so cold and aloof. Picard was also presented as a reserved, aloof figure who wasn't easy to get close to, yet over the course of the series he was given a steady stream of old friends and old flames, suggesting he must've been more gregarious in his younger days. That gave me my arc for the character. What happened in his life to close him off like that?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

As I recall, the group of manlaroth featured in the book agreed to 'ascend' in the end because Picard made his speech about how humanity is 'grown up' and can handle whatever awaits in the future.

After 'Destiny' (and the Caeliar saving a helpless federation), such a speech sounds hollow.
I doubt anyone can be convinced by it anymore (the manlaroth would most likely find the speech cute, coming from overconfident children). It's even doubtful Picard - or anyone in the federation- would make this speech after 'Destiny'.

 

[Christopher]

But humanity did handle what happened to it in Destiny. It was human beings, and their Federation allies, who persuaded the Caeliar to climb out of their omphaloskeptic rut and for gods' sake do something about a problem they'd created. Sometimes older races get overly complacent or stagnant and need the raw wisdom of a younger race to knock some sense into them. Yes, technically the action was Caeliar, but the will that made it happen was human.

Maturity and responsibility don't mean that you have to solve every problem by yourself. If you're an adult who wakes up and sees your house on fire, you know that the responsible thing to do is not to try to put out the fire yourself, but to get the hell out of there and call the fire department.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

But humanity did handle what happened to it in Destiny. It was human beings, and their Federation allies, who persuaded the Caeliar to climb out of their omphaloskeptic rut and for gods' sake do something about a problem they'd created. Sometimes older races get overly complacent or stagnant and need the raw wisdom of a younger race to knock some sense into them. Yes, technically the action was Caeliar, but the will that made it happen was human.

Maturity and responsibility don't mean that you have to solve every problem by yourself. If you're an adult who wakes up and sees your house on fire, you know that the responsible thing to do is not to try to put out the fire yourself, but to get the hell out of there and call the fire department.

We already had this discussion (~'Dumb and bizzare trek moments' thread) - and you were equally unconvincing then, too, Christopher.

'Destiny' - Hernandez, a Caeliar (a state of affairs made blindingly obvious at the end of the trilogy) informs the other Caeliar that the borg are their creation (there is no moral persuasion/conversion involved).
Then, the Caeliar, with no interference whatsoever from "human beings and their federation allies", decide to take care of the borg - which they do, easily.
Unlike humans, who were helpless.

Humans needed the help of the Caeliar - alone, they could do absolutely nothing.

No human in his right mind would tell the manlaroth, after 'Destiny', that humans/the federation can handle anything they will encounter on their own, that they don't need the help of 'higher beings'.
And if a human would say this, he won't be takes seriously - with good reason.

 

[Christopher]

We already had this discussion (~'Dumb and bizzare trek moments' thread) - and you were equally unconvincing then, too, Christopher.

No, you were just unconvinced.

'Destiny' - Hernandez, a Caeliar (a state of affairs made blindingly obvious at the end of the trilogy) informs the other Caeliar that the borg are their creation (there is no moral persuasion/conversion involved).

But Hernandez was originally human. It was humans/Starfleet who discovered the Borg's origins and brought that information to the Caeliar. It was human/Starfleet vessels, Columbia and Titan, that went out into space and made contact with the Caeliar, bringing these isolationist beings into contact with the rest of the universe.

Humans needed the help of the Caeliar - alone, they could do absolutely nothing.

Did you miss my whole fire-department paragraph? Maturity doesn't mean you can do everything without help. On the contrary, it is profoundly immature to try to do everything on your own and never ask anyone for help.

No human in his right mind would tell the manlaroth, after 'Destiny', that humans/the federation can handle anything they will encounter on their own, that they don't need the help of 'higher beings'.
And if a human would say this, he won't be takes seriously - with good reason.

I disagree completely. Independence is not a guarantee of survival. You don't have to prove you'll never, ever get in a traffic accident before you can get a driver's license. Because that's an impossible thing to prove. No one can rule out every possibility of things going wrong. But that doesn't mean nobody can ever be trusted to be mature, responsible, and independent.

And frankly, it's quite unfair to cite a unique, extreme event like Destiny as evidence of human immaturity. The Borg Invasion was a profound outlier. Your argument is like saying that if someone grows up, moves out, buys a house, and then gets that house blown away by a tornado, it's proof that that person was too irresponsible to be trusted with home ownership and should never be trusted again. That's just ridiculous.

Besides, you're completely misrepresenting the resolution of The Buried Age. Picard didn't tell Giriaenn that humanity would never again need help from more advanced beings. That never happened. He told her that it was time for the Manraloth to let their children grow up, leave the nest, and take their own chances. Independence is not a guarantee of survival. Sometimes children grow up, leave their parents, and get killed in traffic or shot by a mugger. But that doesn't mean their parents should never have let them leave home. It means that sooner or later you have to let go and accept that your children have a right to lead their own lives.

It's like the Prime Directive. Nonintervention isn't a guarantee that an alien world will be safe from harm. On the contrary, it can be painful to stand by and do nothing while they suffer great harm. But the underlying principle is that they deserve the right to make their own choices and not be controlled by some external power. If they find a way to make contact with other powers and ask for help, that's a different thing, and the humane thing to do is to intervene if asked. But it's still wrong to impose that help whether they want it or not. That's what Picard told the Manraloth: not that the younger races of the galaxy would never need help again, but that it was time for the Manraloth to follow the Prime Directive and allow the younger races independence -- despite the risks such independence entails.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

"But Hernandez was originally human."
Originally - but not by the time of 'Destiny'. Not anymore.
Hernandez discovered the origins of the borg - on her own, with no help from the mere mortals. She contacted the caeliar - again, with no help from humans.
Humans were hopelessly outclassed - they could do absolutely nothing to help themselves (and trivialities such as being a taxi service don't count as meaningfully contributing).

"You don't have to prove you'll never, ever get in a traffic accident before you can get a driver's license. Because that's an impossible thing to prove."
But you CAN PROVE that you'll get into a traffic accident after you get a driver's license - simply by getting into a traffic accident.
And this is exactly what the federation proved during 'Destiny'.

Furthermore, equating the borg with events such as traffic accidents or improbable tornados (which can be avoided or survived by a diligent person) is far from accurate.
The borg can't be survived by a diligent federation - nor avoided. And they are a certainty, not a possibility - they were out there, you just hadn't met them yet. Which can also be said of uncounted horrors that exist in the depths of space.

"And frankly, it's quite unfair to cite a unique, extreme event like Destiny as evidence of human immaturity. The Borg Invasion was a profound outlier"
The borg invasion was, by far, the most significant event of the 24th century. It's NOT something that can be discounted because Picard&co are good at the equivalent of saving kittens from trees.
The federation PROVED, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it DOES NEED HELP from higher beings in order to survive.

"Picard didn't tell Giriaenn that humanity would never again need help from more advanced beings."
Picard told the manlaroth that the federation is 'grown up', can handle itself, that humans don't need help from the manlaroth (do I really need to search the book for quotes?). He was unambiguously proven false during 'Destiny'.

"Maturity doesn't mean you can do everything without help. On the contrary, it is profoundly immature to try to do everything on your own and never ask anyone for help."
Then Picard - and the federation - from the end of 'The buried age' were profoundly immature.

 

[Christopher]

"But Hernandez was originally human."
Originally - but not by the time of 'Destiny'. Not anymore.

Not physically, no. But that's not the point. Reconnecting with Titan reawakened her connection to humanity in mind, in spirit, and motivated her to act rather than being passive. And it was human initiative, the human drive to explore, that brought her to the Caeliar in the first place. You keep making the mistake of assuming that just because humans didn't directly take the critical action, they contributed nothing. And that's just wrong. There's human involvement at every step of the chain of events.

"You don't have to prove you'll never, ever get in a traffic accident before you can get a driver's license. Because that's an impossible thing to prove."
But you CAN PROVE that you'll get into a traffic accident after you get a driver's license - simply by getting into a traffic accident.
And this is exactly what the federation proved during 'Destiny'.

That's a trivial and tautological point. What matters is, getting in an accident doesn't prove that you should never have been allowed to drive in the first place -- not if it can be shown that the accident wasn't your fault. The point is that just because accidents can and do happen, that doesn't mean it's wrong to grant people independence. Independence always carries risks. That's a given. But people still have the right to gain independence and not be treated like children throughout their lives.

Furthermore, equating the borg with events such as traffic accidents or improbable tornados (which can be avoided or survived by a diligent person) is far from accurate.
The borg can't be survived by a diligent federation - nor avoided. And they are a certainty, not a possibility - they were out there, you just hadn't met them yet. Which can also be said of uncounted horrors that exist in the depths of space.

Somebody once said, "Risk is our business." More fundamentally, risk is part of life. Maturity is not a guarantee of perpetual survival. Part of maturity is going out and taking your own risks rather than being forever sheltered.

The federation PROVED, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it DOES NEED HELP from higher beings in order to survive.

I have never denied that. I accept it without dispute. My point is that everyone needs help, and that's not inconsistent with being mature and deserving of free choice.

"Picard didn't tell Giriaenn that humanity would never again need help from more advanced beings."
Picard told the manlaroth that the federation is 'grown up', can handle itself, that humans don't need help from the manlaroth (do I really need to search the book for quotes?).

Uhh... I wrote the book. You really think you're qualified to lecture me on what I meant when I wrote it? And yes, I did double-check my copy before posting. Better yet, here's a passage cut and pasted directly from my original manuscript file on my own hard drive (from the end of Chapter XXVI, p. 398-9 in the published book):

“For hundreds of millennia,” he told her, “you were accustomed to operating within an extremely well-established support network. You lived your lives by building on what those before you had achieved.”

“And that won’t work anymore, will it? Not in your world. You have to make it up as you go.” She offered him a feeble smile. “And that makes you more resourceful, doesn’t it? Better able to cope with the unknown. The unexpected.”

“We generally manage.” He sensed Guinan coming up behind him, but she simply listened.

Tears glistened in Giriaenn’s eyes. “We don’t have the answers for you, do we? We can’t help you. You need to face the universe on your own . . . never knowing what lies ahead.”

“It’s hard, isn’t it?” Guinan asked her. “To realize your children are all grown up. That no matter how much you still want to protect them, all you can do for them anymore is let them go.” She smiled. “But I’ll tell you something. As much as it hurts, there’s nothing that makes a mother prouder than knowing her kids are ready to make it on their own.”

Giriaenn gazed at Picard and smiled sadly. “You are ready, you know. I see that now. But we had nothing to do with it.”

Ngalior came forward and took her hand. “Maybe we did, Giri. From what I’ve learned of the worlds they evolved on . . . well, they would’ve just been developing multicellular life during the Manraloth Era.” He turned to Picard to explain. “When we came upon worlds like that . . . we usually declared them off-limits for colonization. We wanted to give their biospheres the chance to evolve new forms, to add to the diversity of the galaxy.”

Picard looked at the Manraloth with new awe. “So we may owe our very existence to you. To the fact that . . . you left us to evolve on our own.”

Giriaenn smirked. “Is that your subtle way of telling us it’s time to go away?”

Nowhere in that is Picard saying that humanity will never face a crisis again. On the contrary, there's a clear sense of sadness in Guinan's exchange with Giriaenn, of painful recognition that your children will be at risk on their own but still deserve the right to be on their own, even if it means you may lose them.

I also did a text search of the manuscript of the novel (which I can do because I wrote it), and there is nowhere in the entire book where Picard tells the Manraloth "we don't need help" or any variant on those words.

He was unambiguously proven false during 'Destiny'.

No, he wasn't, because he never said what you think he said.

If the Manraloth had come along just after Destiny, would it have been harder for Picard to prove his case to them? I'm sure it would've been. But that doesn't mean his argument would've been intrinsically wrong. Children do have to grow up and lead their own lives eventually. And if they're smart, if they're responsible, they'll know to ask for help when they need it. There's no contradiction there. Independence does not preclude interdependence.

"Maturity doesn't mean you can do everything without help. On the contrary, it is profoundly immature to try to do everything on your own and never ask anyone for help."
Then Picard - and the federation - from the end of 'The buried age' were profoundly immature.

No, he wasn't, because he did not say "We will never again need to ask anyone for help." He said "This is no longer the galaxy you, the Manraloth, knew and you're therefore not as qualified to take care of us as you think you are. Your solutions won't work anymore because today's galaxy is very different from the one you knew. So it's time for you to move on and leave matters to the species that grew up in the current state of the galaxy." Saying that the Manraloth's specific approach was wrong and outdated is not the same thing as saying that the Federation would never need anyone's help ever.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

"Not physically, no."
Not physically and not mentally. Hernandez WAS Caeliar, NOT human. The ending of 'Destiny' makes this as clear as it can be made. Thematically, Hernandez is the half-divine being that reaches full divinity and joins the 'gods of night', while the 'mere mortals' stay behind to pick up the pieces of their defeated civilizaton.

"There's human involvement at every step of the chain of events."
No matter how much you try to retcon human involvment into the events that led to the demise of the borg, the simple fact is, humans were unable to contribute anything meaningful.

Apropos - Hernandez didn't encounter the Caeliar due to her "drive to 'explore'" - her ship was critically damaged in war and she headed to the closest place she thought she could get help. It was coincidence and survival.

"What matters is, getting in an accident doesn't prove that you should never have been allowed to drive in the first place -- not if it can be shown that the accident wasn't your fault."
But if it can be shown that the accident was inevitable, that no amount of diligence on your part could have prevented it, this DOES show that you're not ready for a drivers' license - not unless you're under supervision.
Driving without killing yourself is simply beyond your objective ability. 'Fault' isn't even part of the equation.

"Somebody once said, "Risk is our business." More fundamentally, risk is part of life."
The borg - and others like them - are not a 'risk'. They're a certainty; they're out there, whether you met them yet or not. And 'Destiny' proved surviving them on your own - without someone else watching over you - is simply not feasible, is not merely a 'risk'.
The quote above sould be 'Commiting suicide is our business'.

The federation PROVED, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it DOES NEED HELP from higher beings in order to survive.
"I have never denied that. I accept it without dispute. My point is that everyone needs help, and that's not inconsistent with being mature and deserving of free choice."
Glad you agree.

In these circumstances, anyone from the federation, any human, telling the manlaroth, after 'Destiny', that they should 'move on' and let the federation alone to deal with the unknown is idiotic, is proof of extreme arrogance, of unjustified confidence in one's own abilities, of suicidal behaviour. In other words, it's immature.
And the manlaroth - or anyone who's listening - could recognize such a speech as comming from immature, overconfident children.


-“We generally manage.” He sensed Guinan coming up behind him, but she simply listened.- proven false in 'Destiny'.

-Tears glistened in Giriaenn’s eyes. “We don’t have the answers for you, do we? We can’t help you.- proven false in 'Destiny'.

-“It’s hard, isn’t it?” Guinan asked her. “To realize your children are all grown up. That no matter how much you still want to protect them, all you can do for them anymore is let them go- proven false in 'Destiny'.

-Giriaenn smirked. “Is that your subtle way of telling us it’s time to go away?”- suicidal aka immature.

 

[Christopher]

"Not physically, no."
Not physically and not mentally. Hernandez WAS Caeliar, NOT human. The ending of 'Destiny' makes this as clear as it can be made.

But she never would've become one if she hadn't started out as a human driven to explore and learn. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. She wasn't just a Caeliar, she was a human who'd become a Caeliar. There's no reason she couldn't be both.

No matter how much you try to retcon human involvment into the events that led to the demise of the borg, the simple fact is, humans were unable to contribute anything meaningful.

No, your opinion is that they were unable to do so. You're entitled to that opinion, but don't call it a "fact."

Apropos - Hernandez didn't encounter the Caeliar due to her "drive to 'explore'" - her ship was critically damaged in war and she headed to the closest place she thought she could get help. It was coincidence and survival.

And if she hadn't been driven to explore, she wouldn't have been out there on a starship in the first place. That's the point. You never know in advance where exploration will lead, but that's why it's worth going out there, and why you miss opportunities if you don't. The same goes for Titan. They didn't know they'd stumble upon New Erigol, but that doesn't change the fact that if Starfleet hadn't sent a ship out there to explore, the Borg would never have been defeated.

"What matters is, getting in an accident doesn't prove that you should never have been allowed to drive in the first place -- not if it can be shown that the accident wasn't your fault."
But if it can be shown that the accident was inevitable, that no amount of diligence on your part could have prevented it, this DOES show that you're not ready for a drivers' license - not unless you're under supervision.

What?????????? That's the opposite of true. If the accident wasn't your fault, if it was because some drunk driver slammed into you or some trucker had a heart attack and swerved into your lane or a tree fell onto your car, that absolutely doesn't prove that you didn't deserve a license. You can be completely responsible and absolutely careful and still get into an accident. That's why they call them accidents. As Picard said to Data once, "It is possible to make no mistakes and still fail." I say again, responsibility is not a guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to you.

"Somebody once said, "Risk is our business." More fundamentally, risk is part of life."
The borg - and others like them - are not a 'risk'. They're a certainty; they're out there, whether you met them yet or not.

Specious reasoning. Anything that kills you can be called a "certainty" after the fact; for instance, if you eat right and exercise regularly and avoid smoking and drugs and alcohol, but still die of an undetected congenital heart defect, then it could be said it was a certainty that you'd die young. But if you didn't know in advance that such a defect existed, then that makes it a risk -- the risk any of us faces that there might be some unknown factor that could end our lives no matter how careful we are.

And 'Destiny' proved surviving them on your own - without someone else watching over you - is simply not feasible, is not merely a 'risk'.

Okay, you're really not understanding the definition of the word "risk" here.

You're also continuing to misrepresent the truth. There is a big difference between having "someone watching over you" on an ongoing basis and being able to draw on help when it's needed. When you're a kid, you (ideally) have your parents watching over you every day. When you grow up, you move out on your own, you generally take care of yourself, but if you get in trouble you can call the police or the fire department or an ambulance or a lawyer. They're there to help you at your request, but that doesn't mean they're "watching over you" as if you were a child. You're confusing two very different principles. Independence as a general way of life does not preclude seeking assistance in specific instances where it is needed.

In these circumstances, anyone from the federation, any human, telling the manlaroth, after 'Destiny', that they should 'move on' and let the federation alone to deal with the unknown is idiotic, is proof of extreme arrogance, of unjustified confidence in one's own abilities, of suicidal behaviour. In other words, it's immature.

Tell me, do you live with your parents? Do you intend to spend the rest of your life dependent on your parents? Because what you're arguing is that any attempt to live independently is foolhardy and immature. If you yourself live independently or ever intend to do so, then your argument is hypocritical.

It's not unjustified to be willing to face risks on your own. On the contrary, what you're demonstrating here is an almost fanatical risk aversion in the wake of a single, exceptionally destructive event. You're saying that because one really bad thing happened, everyone should just hide under their beds and cry for mommy for the rest of their existence. That's not a healthy way of reacting to a disaster.

And the manlaroth - or anyone who's listening - could recognize such a speech as comming from immature, overconfident children.

By your definition, everyone in the history of the universe who's ever sought independence would be immature and overconfident. You're saying that unless nothing bad ever happens to someone for the rest of their lives, then they were wrong ever to strike out on their own. And that's just nonsense. There's never a guarantee that your entire life will be free of disaster, but that's no reason not to choose to live independently.

-“We generally manage.” He sensed Guinan coming up behind him, but she simply listened.- proven false in 'Destiny'.

Okay, "generally" is another word whose definition I think you need to brush up on. It means "in most cases." It allows for the possibility of exceptions to the rule. Destiny is an exception. We've seen throughout Star Trek that humanity and the Federation have "managed" to survive virtually every crisis they've ever faced through their own efforts. So yes, it is true that they generally manage.

-Tears glistened in Giriaenn’s eyes. “We don’t have the answers for you, do we? We can’t help you.- proven false in 'Destiny'.

No. Because Giraienn wasn't saying "No one can help you." She was saying "We, the Manraloth, who are 250 million years out of date and making the wrong choices about a galaxy we no longer understand, are not qualified to help you." That has nothing whatsoever to do with the Caeliar.

-“It’s hard, isn’t it?” Guinan asked her. “To realize your children are all grown up. That no matter how much you still want to protect them, all you can do for them anymore is let them go- proven false in 'Destiny'.

It wasn't proven true or false. It's got nothing to do with what happened in Destiny. It's just a fact of life that parents need to let go of their children eventually. If those children eventually need help from someone else, such as the police or a doctor, that doesn't invalidate the parents' choice to let them become independent adults.

-Giriaenn smirked. “Is that your subtle way of telling us it’s time to go away?”- suicidal aka immature.

That's not even a coherent point, so there's nothing to respond to.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

ProtoAvatar, why does it have to be an all-or-nothing situation in regards to Destiny and the Federation/everyone in the Alpha Quadrant needing/not needing intervention from more advanced beings?

 

[JarodRussell]

Isn't comparing statements from two different and seperate novels totally pointless?

Is this some sort of "Did Kirk really die alone in Generations?" - "Why should he?" - "Because he said he would in Final Frontier!" variation?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Isn't comparing statements from two different and seperate novels totally pointless?

When the argument is with the author of one of the novels in question, yes.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

[...]And if she hadn't been driven to explore[...]

"No matter how much you try to retcon human involvment into the events that led to the demise of the borg, the simple fact is, humans were unable to contribute anything meaningful."

What?????????? That's the opposite of true. If the accident wasn't your fault, if it was because some drunk driver slammed into you or some trucker had a heart attack and swerved into your lane or a tree fell onto your car, that absolutely doesn't prove that you didn't deserve a license.

"Furthermore, equating the borg with events such as traffic accidents or improbable tornados (which can be avoided or survived by a diligent person) is far from accurate.
The borg can't be survived by a diligent federation - nor avoided. And they are a certainty, not a possibility - they were out there, you just hadn't met them yet. Which can also be said of uncounted horrors that exist in the depths of space."

Specious reasoning. Anything that kills you can be called a "certainty" after the fact

After 'Destiny', one can say with certainty that humanity is not able to handle many of the things that are to be found in the galaxy - and beyond. You don't really think the borg are the only far more powerful than the federation, highly agressive species to be found out there, do you?

You're also continuing to misrepresent the truth. There is a big difference between having "someone watching over you" on an ongoing basis and being able to draw on help when it's needed.

O, the federation doesn't need help on an ongoing basis. But it DOES need help.

Tell me, do you live with your parents? Do you intend to spend the rest of your life dependent on your parents? Because what you're arguing is that any attempt to live independently is foolhardy and immature. If you yourself live independently or ever intend to do so, then your argument is hypocritical.

Tell me, is a 7 year old ready to be 'independent'? That's what the federation proved it is in 'Destiny'.
A 7 year old trying to be independed IS foolhardy and immature. It can handle games with the other kids nearby - not adult stuff.

By your definition, everyone in the history of the universe who's ever sought independence would be immature and overconfident.

Only if they're objectively not ready to face life on their own.

On the contrary, what you're demonstrating here is an almost fanatical risk aversion in the wake of a single, exceptionally destructive event.

"fanatical"? Hardly. My position is supported by arguments - which you are, apparently, unable to convincingly counter.
Indeed, one could say that your position demonstrates a fanatical overconfidence in the federation's abilities.

Okay, "generally" is another word whose definition I think you need to brush up on. It means "in most cases."

Having the population decimated after only 300 years is not 'we generally manage'. It's 'we don't manage'.

-Giriaenn smirked. “Is that your subtle way of telling us it’s time to go away?”- suicidal aka immature.

That's not even a coherent point, so there's nothing to respond to.

After 'Destiny', when one knows with certainty that one can't handle everything out there, declining help from someone who could help you IS suicidal aka immature.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

The Buried Age takes place 25-30 years before Destiny, before the Federation ever encountered the Borg.

There was assumed to be no need, since all the other quadrant powers were either allied, in isolation, or were at an even keel with the Federation.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Buried Age takes place 25-30 years before Destiny, before the Federation ever encountered the Borg.

There was assumed to be no need, since all the other quadrant powers were either allied, in isolation, or were at an even keel with the Federation.

Valeris, behold my post which started this debate:

"As I recall, the group of manlaroth featured in the book agreed to 'ascend' in the end because Picard made his speech about how humanity is 'grown up' and can handle whatever awaits in the future.

After 'Destiny' (and the Caeliar saving a helpless federation), such a speech sounds hollow.
I doubt anyone can be convinced by it anymore (the manlaroth would most likely find the speech cute, coming from overconfident children). It's even doubtful Picard - or anyone in the federation- would make this speech after 'Destiny'."

As you can see, I repeatedly specified "after 'Destiny'".