The Buried Age: Where are the Manraloth? *Spoilers*

[Deranged Nasat]

(damn. That's "Buried Age" not "Buired Age". my shame is now pasted to the forum forever).

Inspired by the comments posted on the "What we've been reading" thread, concerning "The Buried Age", which have reminded me of something I was meaning to ask:

I was wondering if there are any plans to follow up on the Manraloth? Specifically, I was wondering if we would ever find out what form the non-quantum stasis Manraloth are now in. Ariel mentions, following her transition, that she now knows where they are and in what form they now exist. While I imagine Christopher Bennett did not intend to signify anything beyond what we got, and this is my extra-story musing, I couldn't help but wonder where they might have "shown up before".

One thing that suggested itself to me (feel free to splutter and bang your head against things, Christopher ) is that there might be some connection to the Cardassian Fates? Some of the things Ariel said struck me as very similar to general ideas conveyed by the Fates in the various forms they've appeared in. Ancient, predating all known civilizations today, seemingly interested primarily in encouraging unity, communication and interconnection, supremely manipulative and with quasi-psionic talents that do not actually qualify as telepathy. I doubt there is much weight to this idle theory, but I couldn't help but wildly speculate "hey, perhaps the Fates are groups of original Manraloth, shadows of their former selves following the trauma of transition during the Great Dying?

 

[T'Ressa Dax]

Re: The Buired Age: Where are the Manraloth? *Spoilers*

That's a very interesting theory. Hmm. Does seem like a bit much to be coincidence..

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: The Buired Age: Where are the Manraloth? *Spoilers*

That's a very interesting theory. Hmm. Does seem like a bit much to be coincidence..

It's been niggling at me...

I don't think Mr. Bennett likes "small universe" theories, but I can't help myself!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: The Buired Age: Where are the Manraloth? *Spoilers*

More clarification: While I have ideas concerning Oralius and company, too, my primary inspiration was Uramtali who seems to resemble a "dark Manraloth", so to speak. "The Buried Age" and "Well of Souls" are both on my top 5 Star Trek book list, so maybe it's not surprising if I like the idea of linking the two! Okay, I know of course no connection was ever intended, but it's a theory I like playing with:

Uramtali is not a mind-reader in the traditional sense, no real telepath, yet she can clearly sense the desires of the telepaths and empaths around her and conduct herself accordingly. "For all its great powers, the thing was not a mindreader" (page 9). Manraloth are not real telepaths yet can "read meaning directly from minds" but "there's no indication (they) can read our unverbalized thoughts" (page 164).

Uramtali's people "predate the Organians and the Metrons". They are "fantastically old", "remnants of a powerful civilization". (Okay, obviously there are loads of those, but bare with me, I'm not arguing for this as such, merely saying I think it might work in my little Trek continuity foulder marked "speculation")

Those who exiled them from the non-corporeal plane thought destroying them/killing them entirely was cruel. Manraloth would share such a sentiment...

Uramtali: "You have been hiding yourself from us, afraid of us, of yourself, of her" (page 377)
Ariel: "Is it common for humans...to pull away from those they have feelings for? To desire intimacy yet feel compelled to resist it?" (page 174)

Uramtali (and Oralius in "Terok Nor: Night of the Wolves" also for that matter) has a habit of assisting people's thinking, stringing them along, manipulating their self-reflection as they do it, in a very Manraloth way (page 377). Manraloth aren't mind controllers. They work with what is already there, focusing on your wants, desires, and using their communication/language skills to maneuver you into thinking you want what they want... Again, both Uramtali and Oralius do this. Uramtali: "You are strong" and other comments on the same page (in symmetry with the character she communicates with thinking it) Oralius: "My name is Astraea" (as though it's a foregone conclusion where Oralius actually means "I want you to be Astraea, will you?") etc....

Uramtali is, I recall, a name given to the being by the inhabitants of the world, but it even sounds Manraloth: Giriaenn, Shireilil, Merthiel, Ngalior,.. Uramtali. Deep, throaty...Could it be her actual name?

For a pulled-out-of-my-mind no-basis-in-actual-story idea, I'm quite proud of this one. I await Christopher's rebutal.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Re: The Buired Age: Where are the Manraloth? *Spoilers*

Some of these suggestions come perilously close to being "story ideas," so Christopher might want to avoid this discussion

 

[Christopher]

It's an interesting thought, though I don't remember anything about the Cardassian Fates; it's been a while since I read The Well of Souls. It's a well-argued thesis, since it's not just a random connection between two races that have nothing in common besides being old and powerful, but demonstrates a fair degree of similarity.

Still, that's a bit of a problem right there. The Manraloth were not a uniform or monolithic species; they were far too old and widespread to be that. And those branches that evolved into incorporeal forms would've presumably changed considerably from what they had been as Manraloth, certainly in terms of their abilities. So one shouldn't read too much into the apparent similarities.

Plus, if we assume that there is an "upward" trend in the evolution of incorporeal intelligences -- not because of any mythical "ladder" of evolution, of course, but simply because it's possible for intelligent beings to aspire to advancement and find ways to achieve it -- then beings that reached the first incorporeal level a quarter of a billion years ago would've had plenty of time to rise far beyond what they'd been as corporeal beings. On the other hand, what I said before about their diversity applies just as much at this level; just because some chose to rise higher doesn't mean they all did.

So it's a clever thought, and it seems like a possibility, but there's no way to be sure. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if various different incorporeal beings on "higher" levels of existence have interbred, speciated, and blended to an extent that it might not be possible to draw a direct line of descent from a single corporeal ancestor to a single modern metasapience. There could be meta-Manraloth "blood" in multiple distinct varieties of energy beings, godlike intelligences, etc. (Though not the Q, who are at least 20 times older and rather insular, or the Organians, who are far younger, or the Prophets, who are far too unfamiliar with linear time and have probably always been what they are.)

 

[Rosalind]

(damn. That's "Buried Age" not "Buired Age". my shame is now pasted to the forum forever).

fixed the title for you.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

(damn. That's "Buried Age" not "Buired Age". my shame is now pasted to the forum forever).

fixed the title for you.

Thank you for saving me from my shame, Rosalind

 

[Deranged Nasat]

It's an interesting thought, though I don't remember anything about the Cardassian Fates; it's been a while since I read The Well of Souls. It's a well-argued thesis, since it's not just a random connection between two races that have nothing in common besides being old and powerful, but demonstrates a fair degree of similarity.

Still, that's a bit of a problem right there. The Manraloth were not a uniform or monolithic species; they were far too old and widespread to be that. And those branches that evolved into incorporeal forms would've presumably changed considerably from what they had been as Manraloth, certainly in terms of their abilities. So one shouldn't read too much into the apparent similarities.

Plus, if we assume that there is an "upward" trend in the evolution of incorporeal intelligences -- not because of any mythical "ladder" of evolution, of course, but simply because it's possible for intelligent beings to aspire to advancement and find ways to achieve it -- then beings that reached the first incorporeal level a quarter of a billion years ago would've had plenty of time to rise far beyond what they'd been as corporeal beings. On the other hand, what I said before about their diversity applies just as much at this level; just because some chose to rise higher doesn't mean they all did..)

Thanks for replying, I appreciate your input on this!

So it's a clever thought, and it seems like a possibility, but there's no way to be sure. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if various different incorporeal beings on "higher" levels of existence have interbred, speciated, and blended to an extent that it might not be possible to draw a direct line of descent from a single corporeal ancestor to a single modern metasapience. There could be meta-Manraloth "blood" in multiple distinct varieties of energy beings, godlike intelligences, etc. (Though not the Q, who are at least 20 times older and rather insular, or the Organians, who are far younger, or the Prophets, who are far too unfamiliar with linear time and have probably always been what they are.)

Thats quite fascinating, thank you.