The Borg footage in Emissary - far too brief to be engaging

[MeanJoePhaser]

I think the Wolf 359 scene should've been scrapped and there should've been 10 more minutes of Sisko explaining linear time to the prophets.

Really, as much of a DS9 fans as I became, The Emissary was dreadfully dull at times and probably turned away a lot of casual TNG watchers. It rivals Encounter at Farpoint for worst Trek pilot (though TNG still wins that award).

 

[Tyjos Azari]

One thing is for sure, Emissary doesn't put me to sleep like Encounter at Farpoint Does.....

 

[PorthosShadow]

One thing is for sure, Emissary doesn't put me to sleep like Encounter at Farpoint Does.....

I don't think EAF is that dull but it isn't that strong of a start for a new Star Trek series. "The Emissary" on the other hand is a very strong introduction to a new Star Trek series. It's an episode that introduces all of the players, setting and goals in a very entertaining way. I can't say that TNG accomplished as much in it's pilot episode but I digress.

Anyway, with DS9 when I look back I don't remember the special effects, specifically the pyrotechnics used in the opening Borg attack. I remember Sisko struggling to find his wife and son only to discover his wife is dead and not wanting to leave her. I remember Sisko looking out at The Saratoga as The Borg finish it off and with a dramatic music que I know life will never be the same for this man.

I'm not being snobby but if I remember pyrotechnics and special effects over the story and characters then what I watched wasn't all that good to begin with. In short the attack at Wolf 359 in "Emissary" was good enough but it wasn't important enough to warrant more explosions. You want mindless explosions, I refer you to any Michael Bay movie.

 

[Sci]

I get the impression that at the time, the Borg appearing in Emissary was a very hyped-up deal (although I did not personally witness the hype at the time, so I could be wrong).

In any case, the Borg in Emissary were vastly under-used, and therefore inffective.

The Borg footage is way too brief. It feels like the Borg sequence is over before it even started.

For that reason, to me the Borg sequence in Emissary comes across as extremely half-baked and mechanical, and therefore not emotionally engaging at all.

The Borg are 'meh' when then they should be 'whoa!'

How they could have done it better: devote 15-20 minutes of screentime directly to the Borg brutally kicking the Sisko family's butt.

But it's not about the Borg. It's about Jennifer's death and Sisko living the worst moment of his life when he's forced to abandon her body. The Borg are really besides they point; they're just the McGuffin to get us to that event.

 

[Navaros]

My idea wasn't just to show redshirts being killed for 20 minutes.

I was thinking more like to have the Sisko argue with his superiors about how they are screwing things up, and have Jennifer's situation get progressively worse...like first have something fall on her legs, then have something else fall on her chest a few minutes later, etc. etc. And to show a lot more of Borg Picard countering the Feds' strategies to try to deal with him.

I think its very much relevant to the story, since the Sisko's resentment of Borg Picard is a main story point, yet we only see Borg Picard for a (vastly inadequate) few seconds.

 

[The Librarian]

My idea wasn't just to show redshirts being killed for 20 minutes.

I was thinking more like to have the Sisko argue with his superiors about how they are screwing things up, and have Jennifer's situation get progressively worse...like first have something fall on her legs, then have something else fall on her chest a few minutes later, etc. etc. And to show a lot more of Borg Picard countering the Feds' strategies to try to deal with him.

I think its very much relevant to the story, since the Sisko's resentment of Borg Picard is a main story point, yet we only see Borg Picard for a (vastly inadequate) few seconds.

That would defeat one of the major points of both the scene and Best of Both World - the Borg came in, stomped all over the fleet in a matter of minutes, and then went on their way. There shouldn't be time for them to do more than say, "Open fire!" and then, "OH SH- *BOOM*"

 

[Withers]

My idea wasn't just to show redshirts being killed for 20 minutes.

I was thinking more like to have the Sisko argue with his superiors about how they are screwing things up, and have Jennifer's situation get progressively worse...like first have something fall on her legs, then have something else fall on her chest a few minutes later, etc. etc. And to show a lot more of Borg Picard countering the Feds' strategies to try to deal with him.

I think its very much relevant to the story, since the Sisko's resentment of Borg Picard is a main story point, yet we only see Borg Picard for a (vastly inadequate) few seconds.

If the Borg were going to be a focal point of DS9 (and let's all thank the Prophets they weren't) then you might have a point but they weren't. If it wasn't understood that the Borg were a serious menace- it didn't matter, they weren't going to show up again anyway. What mattered was the impact of losing his wife and how Sisko was a somewhat broken, somewhat bitter man over the fact. Jennifer might just as well have died in a shuttle craft accident- the effect on Sisko was what was important. They chose to use the Borg to give it more fanfare and a more dramatic setting and to set up from episode 1 that DS9 wasn't going to be the TNG-love fest in regard to how officers in Starfleet thought of one another (i.e. it is possible for them to not like one another.)

If you want to see more of the Borg blowing **** up watch Voyager. DS9 focused on the characters and the effects caused by situations more so than on the situations themselves (that's why the Dominion War wasn't 2 years of non-stop fleet battles, one right after the other.)

-Withers-​

 

[di_mar]

I loved it! It was a great start to what could have been made boring. It introduced the characters, and it had a heavily emotional setting despite it only being the first episode(s).. Sisko loosing his wife. I found the episode exciting and interesting; it lead on the movie First Contact (unless I'm getting the timelines wrong here? Memory of a sieve). I, myself, love tie-ins.. especially with Picards' appearance and the controversy between Sisko and Picard.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree!

 

[Hofner]

The proposition to prolong Jennifer's death reminds me of Dr. Evil's futile efforts to kill his henchman.

As Sisko grieves, cries and emotes all over the place:

Jennifer: I'm... not... dead... ... yet.

Robert

 

[PorthosShadow]

The proposition to prolong Jennifer's death reminds me of Dr. Evil's futile efforts to kill his henchman.

As Sisko grieves, cries and emotes all over the place:

Jennifer: I'm... not... dead... ... yet.

Robert

Where do you get the impression that scene was "prolonging" Jennifer's death? I never felt it was too short or too long, it was just right. Also, do you think he should have been all stoic like instead of "emoting"

 

[Withers]

The proposition to prolong Jennifer's death reminds me of Dr. Evil's futile efforts to kill his henchman.

As Sisko grieves, cries and emotes all over the place:

Jennifer: I'm... not... dead... ... yet.

Robert

Where do you get the impression that scene was "prolonging" Jennifer's death? I never felt it was too short or too long, it was just right. Also, do you think he should have been all stoic like instead of "emoting"

"The proposition to prolong..." Correct me if I'm wrong but I think hofner was saying the OP's idea would have played out in a less than desirable way (i.e. hammy) not that what was originally shown was done that way.

-Withers-​

 

[ALF]

If Trek doesn't hold enough space combat for you the video games are worth looking into.

I felt there could have been a bit more Borg battle too (keeping in mind that the few seconds of Borg battle we did see in The Emissary was what we didn't see in TBOBW!), but at it's heart Trek has always been about characters.

First Contact had a decent skirmish with a Borg cube. and Voyager blew up how many cubes?

 

[nx1701g]

I never had a problem with it. I thought that they were used perfectly, but they should have shown at least a few Borg boarding the ship.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

In the '80, such a suggesstion might hold some weight - simply because the viewers were famished after special effects - see Star Wars.
Now, when you see them everywhere, viewers are more interested in the actual quality of the story - which is why the suggestion has no value.

 

[Saquist]

This thread kinda represents the fan mentality that more borg fixes all.
This is why the borg were zombified in First Contact and demoted to villain of the week in Voyager and ENT.

The fans literally ask for this and personally I think it begets poor taste in story and meaningful entertainment.

 

[TheGodBen]

In the '80, such a suggesstion might hold some weight - simply because the viewers were famished after special effects - see Star Wars.
Now, when you see them everywhere, viewers are more interested in the actual quality of the story - which is why the suggestion has no value.

How does this explain Avatar?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

In the '80, such a suggesstion might hold some weight - simply because the viewers were famished after special effects - see Star Wars.
Now, when you see them everywhere, viewers are more interested in the actual quality of the story - which is why the suggestion has no value.

How does this explain Avatar?

Good point.

Apparently, as long as a product advertises itself as being new (and has the shadow of an argument to back up this advertisment) many will be attracted to it, simply because it is 'new', 'previously unheard of'.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I'm quite happy with minimum Borg in DS9. Just enough to set up the story of Sisko as single parent, but not enough to make the Borg any sort of chief antagonist in the DS9 story.

I've always thought the fact that they are on screen for about 4 minutes of the entire show to be a plus. They are TNG's bad guys, and co-opting them into VOY was a huge mistake for that show. Better that DS9 never went down that road.

 

[PorthosShadow]

In the '80, such a suggesstion might hold some weight - simply because the viewers were famished after special effects - see Star Wars.
Now, when you see them everywhere, viewers are more interested in the actual quality of the story - which is why the suggestion has no value.

How does this explain Avatar?

Good point.

Apparently, as long as a product advertises itself as being new (and has the shadow of an argument to back up this advertisement) many will be attracted to it, simply because it is 'new', 'previously unheard of'.

That brings up another good point in that The Borg aspect of Emissary was a big selling point to get fans of TNG to watch. However, the series after wards proved it was more than big explosions. Also, in regards to "Avatar" time will tell weather or not it's a really good movie in the same way DS9 had to prove it's worth over time. Even 17 years later DS9 is still just as good as I remember. Who knows, maybe "Avatar" despite all the flash will still be regarded as a classic in the next ten years.

 

[Saquist]

I'm quite happy with minimum Borg in DS9. Just enough to set up the story of Sisko as single parent, but not enough to make the Borg any sort of chief antagonist in the DS9 story.

I've always thought the fact that they are on screen for about 4 minutes of the entire show to be a plus. They are TNG's bad guys, and co-opting them into VOY was a huge mistake for that show. Better that DS9 never went down that road.

It was just poorly done for Voyager.
The borg were a great idea to continue with...but the escapism of Voyager episdoes make them look like trivialities buts that's what First Contact started and VOY ended....excuse me....ENT ended.