The Borg, explain to me

[tighr]

Seems too basic a mistake to make for someone like Hoshi.

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

Usually that happens when there is a third party involved rather than a direct translation. Its why "Germany" and "Japan" appear on English Maps.

You mean Deutschland and Nippon?

 

[JimTheBuilder]

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

Usually that happens when there is a third party involved rather than a direct translation. Its why "Germany" and "Japan" appear on English Maps.

You mean Deutschland and Nippon?

EXACTLY!!!!!!

 

[T'Girl]

Same was done when Admiral Forest referred to Klaang as a Klingot and the Vulcans corrected him.

Except, unlike Hoshi, Admiral Forest isn't a linguist and a translator. And I think it was one of the other men in the room, not Forrest.

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

It would be pronounced exactly as the original speaker pronounced it, if you were listening to someone and then simply repeating.

"Peking" was the result of converting written Chinese characters into a written Roman alphabet, and then pronouncing that written word. To directly answer your question it is pronounced "Beijing."

Especially when it comes to transliterating alien words into English which have never been encountered before.

But Hoshi would not have "translated " either Romalin or Romulans into English, it's a proper noun, in this case obviously a name. Hoshi would have simply repeated exactly what she heard. She would have then translate the follow on "Star Empire" into English. But not the name itself.

If I was translating what you were saying into another language, and at some point you spoke your own name, or the name of the city in which you lived. Even if your name had a meaning (many do) which could be translated into the other language, I would not translate your name, I would simply repeat it directly as you yourself pronounced it.

 

[Sci]

Especially when it comes to transliterating alien words into English which have never been encountered before.

But Hoshi would not have "translated " either Romalin or Romulans into English,

I said "transliterate," not "translate."

it's a proper noun, in this case obviously a name. Hoshi would have simply repeated exactly what she heard. She would have then translate the follow on "Star Empire" into English. But not the name itself.

You're making several unsupported assumptions about the nature of the Romulan language. You're assuming that all of its phonemes can be replicated into English, you're assuming that its adjectives are used as separate words, and you're assuming that it uses the same syntax as English.

Maybe Romulan is like Spanish, and the adjectives succeed the word being modified (except when they're trying to be archaic and fancy, at which point they may precede the adjective) -- "Empire Star Romulan" rather than "Romulan Star Empire." Maybe the phonemes used in Romulan can't be completely accurately replicated in English, and both "Romalin" and "Romulan" are accurate transliterations (and T'Pol was just being an ass, as per usual).

Or maybe the adjective that corresponds to "Romulan" isn't actually a separate word, but is, rather, a prefix or suffix added to their word for "Empire." In point of fact, perhaps it's a prefix or suffice whose pronunciation changes upon being affixed to another word -- so that it's pronounced "Romulan" in most circumstances, but "Romalin" if used as an adjective. (For a comparison: The term "biopic" is a word that has recently evolved, combining the words "biographical" and "picture," to describe a movie about a person's life. Yet when it is spoken out loud, it is often pronounced as "bi-ahp-ic" rather than "bio-pic.")

Languages are often full of funny things like that. Maybe an accurate replication of the phrase corresponding to "Romulan Star Empire" would be literally something like "EmpireRomalin-of-stars," with "Romulan Star Empire" being a way to make the phrase make sense with both a consistent pronunciation of the culture's name (keeping it "Romulan" at all times rather than just when used as a noun), by separating the adjectives from the noun, and by removing the "of stars" clause and changing it into a mere adjective ("Star").

Changing the literal meaning when translating something is also common. In Spanish, for instance, you wouldn't say, "I am 25 years old," you would say, "Tengo 25 años," which literally translates as, "I have 25 years." Similarly, in Spanish, you wouldn't say, "I like Mister Spock" ("Disfruto del señor Spock"), you would say, "Me gusta el señor Spock," which would literally translate as something like "The Mister Spock is pleasing to me" -- or, more literally, if you preserve Spanish syntax, "To me, is pleasing, the Mister Spock."

Bottom line: There could be plenty of reasons Hoshi thought it was "Romalin" rather than "Romulan," ranging from honest disagreement to how to transliterate the term into English, to genuine differences in how the term is pronounced in Romulan between its noun and adjective forms, to the fact that, yes, even geniuses sometimes make simple mistakes and that's just life. It's pure thoughtlessness to just assume it's bad writing.

Haven't we already been warned about passive-aggressive smiley faces?

ETA:

Seems too basic a mistake to make for someone like Hoshi.

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

Have you ever studied how words from different languages are transliterated? How there are literally conflicting systems for how to transliterate words from one language to another?

Even a trained linguist can make a mistake. Especially when it comes to transliterating alien words into English which have never been encountered before.

Usually that happens when there is a third party involved rather than a direct translation. Its why "Germany" and "Japan" appear on English Maps.

You mean sort of like how T'Pol, in "correcting" Hoshi's pronunciation, was a representative of the planet of Vulcan and was therefore a third party to that particular Human/Romulan incident?

 

[tighr]

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

It would be pronounced exactly as the original speaker pronounced it, if you were listening to someone and then simply repeating.

"Peking" was the result of converting written Chinese characters into a written Roman alphabet, and then pronouncing that written word. To directly answer your question it is pronounced "Beijing."

You're still wrong. The phoenetic pronouciation (which is the one that matters here) is /beɪˈdʒɪŋ/.

"Beijing" is still merely an English approximation.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

It would be pronounced exactly as the original speaker pronounced it, if you were listening to someone and then simply repeating.

That's not how it works. Have you ever told someone with an accent different than yours what your name is? Did they pronounce it exactly the same way you do? Probably not.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

Have you ever studied how words from different languages are transliterated? How there are literally conflicting systems for how to transliterate words from one language to another?

Even a trained linguist can make a mistake. Especially when it comes to transliterating alien words into English which have never been encountered before.

Usually that happens when there is a third party involved rather than a direct translation. Its why "Germany" and "Japan" appear on English Maps.

You mean sort of like how T'Pol, in "correcting" Hoshi's pronunciation, was a representative of the planet of Vulcan and was therefore a third party to that particular Human/Romulan incident?

No, because Hoshi was in direct contact with the Romulans rather than using an intermediary and is a linguist with almost superhuman abilities.

It would be pronounced exactly as the original speaker pronounced it, if you were listening to someone and then simply repeating.

That's not how it works. Have you ever told someone with an accent different than yours what your name is? Did they pronounce it exactly the same way you do? Probably not.

Not everyone is the aforementioned linguist with almost superhuman abilities. Makes her look like she's bad at her job, like Uhura not knowing Klingonese or McCoy being stumped by Klingon anatomy in TUC.

 

[Sci]

Usually that happens when there is a third party involved rather than a direct translation. Its why "Germany" and "Japan" appear on English Maps.

You mean sort of like how T'Pol, in "correcting" Hoshi's pronunciation, was a representative of the planet of Vulcan and was therefore a third party to that particular Human/Romulan incident?

No, because Hoshi was in direct contact with the Romulans rather than using an intermediary

Which is nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that people often apply different names to foreign cultures than the cultures themselves use as a result of the influence of third parties.

and is a linguist with almost superhuman abilities.

It would be pronounced exactly as the original speaker pronounced it, if you were listening to someone and then simply repeating.

That's not how it works. Have you ever told someone with an accent different than yours what your name is? Did they pronounce it exactly the same way you do? Probably not.

Not everyone is the aforementioned linguist with almost superhuman abilities. Makes her look like she's bad at her job, like Uhura not knowing Klingonese or McCoy being stumped by Klingon anatomy in TUC.

I'm sorry, but you're setting up a ridiculous argument. "Hoshi is exceptional in her field; therefore if she makes any mistakes whatsoever, that makes her bad at her job."

 

[tighr]

You mean sort of like how T'Pol, in "correcting" Hoshi's pronunciation, was a representative of the planet of Vulcan and was therefore a third party to that particular Human/Romulan incident?

No, because Hoshi was in direct contact with the Romulans rather than using an intermediary

Which is nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that people often apply different names to foreign cultures than the cultures themselves use as a result of the influence of third parties.

That doesn't apply here. The argument is over a specific scenario.

1. Hoshi hears transmission in foreign language. She hears: "Romulan gobbleygook gobbleygookedy."
2. Hoshi translates it as "Romalin Star Empire."
3. T'Pol corrects her by saying she misheard "Romulan" as "Romalin".

That's the facts.

So basically, what we are told is that Hoshi, despite being badass at her job, flubbed on a proper noun.

 

[Sci]

The argument is over a specific scenario.

1. Hoshi hears transmission in foreign language. She hears: "Romulan gobbleygook gobbleygookedy."
2. Hoshi translates it as "Romalin Star Empire."
3. T'Pol corrects her by saying she misheard "Romulan" as "Romalin".

That's the facts.

So basically, what we are told is that Hoshi, despite being badass at her job, flubbed on a proper noun.

An adjective, actually. "Empire" would be the noun, and "Star" and "Romulan" would be adjectives.

And I've already outlined any number of scenarios where someone, even someone who's badass at his/her job, might flub translating that phrase. In fact, you hit on one issue right there -- that in English, we often use the same word, with the same pronunciation, for its adjective and proper noun forms ("Romulan" the adjective; "Romulan" the noun), but this may not be true in other languages.

Bottom line: Hoshi pronouncing it as "Romalin" is not an indication of incompetence, or an indication of lack-of-badass-ness at her job. It's an indication that it's a completely new language, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[tighr]

We appear to be in vehement agreement. You're just more passionate about your agreement than I am.

 

[tighr]

So... how about them Borg?

 

[Nerys Myk]

You mean sort of like how T'Pol, in "correcting" Hoshi's pronunciation, was a representative of the planet of Vulcan and was therefore a third party to that particular Human/Romulan incident?

No, because Hoshi was in direct contact with the Romulans rather than using an intermediary

Which is nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that people often apply different names to foreign cultures than the cultures themselves use as a result of the influence of third parties.

Yeah, which was kind of my point. The situation with Hoshi is not a case of a third party giving someone a name for a foreign culture prior to that someone encountering that culture.

and is a linguist with almost superhuman abilities.

That's not how it works. Have you ever told someone with an accent different than yours what your name is? Did they pronounce it exactly the same way you do? Probably not.

Not everyone is the aforementioned linguist with almost superhuman abilities. Makes her look like she's bad at her job, like Uhura not knowing Klingonese or McCoy being stumped by Klingon anatomy in TUC.

I'm sorry, but you're setting up a ridiculous argument. "Hoshi is exceptional in her field; therefore if she makes any mistakes whatsoever, that makes her bad at her job."

I'm sure she can make mistakes, but making that particular mistake doesn't track in this scenario.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

The first of us was the human designated Ray Kurzweil in Earth year 2028. He intended to enhance his inferior form for the benefit of the human species, but soon realized such concerns were irrelevant, and departed sector 001 with other humans who had voluntarily been assimilated to pursue biological and technological distinctiveness and add it to our own.

 

[T'Girl]

Pop quiz! Is "北京" pronounced as "Peking" or "Beijing?"

"Beijing."

You're still wrong. The phoenetic pronouciation (which is the one that matters here) is /beɪˈdʒɪŋ/.

The pop quiz had two options, beɪˈdʒɪŋ wasn't one of them.

"Beijing" for the win.

.

Haven't we already been warned about passive-aggressive smiley faces?

I haven't, but given that the smile is a fixture at the bottom of the vast majority of my posts, why would I receive a warning?

 

[Sci]

"Beijing."

You're still wrong. The phoenetic pronouciation (which is the one that matters here) is /beɪˈdʒɪŋ/.

The pop quiz had two options, beɪˈdʒɪŋ wasn't one of them.

"Beijing" for the win.

Nether for the win, because it illustrates my point about the Romulan language containing sounds that can't accurately be replicated in English -- just like neither "Beijing" nor "Peking" is an accurate replication of the name of that city, it's entirely possible that neither "Romulan" nor "Romalin" is an accurate replication of the name for that culture.

Haven't we already been warned about passive-aggressive smiley faces?

I haven't, but given that the smile is a fixture at the bottom of the vast majority of my posts, why would I receive a warning?

Because it comes across as rude, passive-aggressive, and condescending.

 

[T'Girl]

Haven't we already been warned about passive-aggressive smiley faces?

I haven't, but given that the smile is a fixture at the bottom of the vast majority of my posts, why would I receive a warning?

Because it comes across as rude, passive-aggressive, and condescending.

Wrong Sci, in my case it comes across as being consistent.

Again, the smile appear at the end of the majority of my posts.

 

[CaptainMatt]

So... how about them Borg?

They are doing quite well, thank you for asking.

 

[BennyRussel]

I don't know what happened to this thread, but it sure took a left turn and hit a wormhole somewhere.

 

[Sci]

I haven't, but given that the smile is a fixture at the bottom of the vast majority of my posts, why would I receive a warning?

Because it comes across as rude, passive-aggressive, and condescending.

Wrong Sci, in my case it comes across as being consistent.

Yes, it comes across as being consistent. Consistently rude, passive-aggressive, and condescending to your fellow posters. Please stop.