The Borg Aren't Too Clever

[ProtoAvatar]

Yet the Dominion kept out-building the UFP, the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire put together

Timo Saloniemi

Not quite, Timo.
Worf said ~ "we can barely keep up". The most important part of the sentence is "keep up". The Dominion could build starships faster than the alphans, but not by much.
If the Dominion sent a significant part of its military through the wormhole, it would take time for it to recover - as it takes time for the federation.

 

[Timo]

But if the Dominion sent a lot of ships through originally, and then fought with slowly dwindling numbers, it makes no sense that they wouldn't have been triumphant during the first few weeks already, overrunning the Alpha forces which in turn started out slow and later grew in strength.

If an isolated beachhead force can keep on building ships to stay even, let alone grow, then the home turf must be able to replenish at an even greater rate. After the first war year, replenishment ships equaling the number of ships originally sent from Gamma to Alpha must already have been built in Gamma. It's not an issue of how many ships exist - it's an issue of how fast they can be built. And the Dominion beachhead always was portrayed as more powerful, not less so, as the war progressed.

The Gamma side of the Dominion could only be suffering from a (temporary) state of weakness if we argued that they sent their best factories over to Alpha. But I can't see that happening. Factory capacity on the Gamma side can't have been significantly weakened merely due to this Alpha expedition.

Add to this all the in-universe aspect of our heroes' reactions. If they had truly seen the Dominion move more ships through the wormhole than there were in the entire Starfleet, it would make no good sense to hesitate: Sisko should have been ordered to launch a suicidal strike against the wormhole at once, even if it meant that the Dominion forces already in Alpha would get angry and conquer or destroy a few star systems. But if what was coming through the wormhole was an industrial force our heroes could not comprehend for the threat it was, accompanied by a nonthreatening number of warships, then their hesitation and waiting for reinforcements makes good sense.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Timo, you're missing the point that the Cardassians played a major role.
The Cardassians although not a major player in the Alpha Quadrant was still a force to be reckoned with, they had wars with the Federation which lead to the creation of the DMZ. The Klingons war against them hit heavy resistance.
The Cardassians were stronger than you think, add to that the Dominion ships and you've got a strong force to war with. All the Dominion needed to do was send enough ships to fight 2 major powers knowing the Cardassians had ships to allow them to fight 3. Cardassian shipyyards already existed and no doubt began construction of bug ships whilst new shipyards were built or upgraded.

Another reason the Dominion seemed to build ships faster was because their ships were smaller. The majority of the Dominion fleet comprised of the small bugships meaning they could be built faster but they were less powerful than Alpha Quadrant ships such as the Galaxy class or a Vor'cha.
You could compare 1 Galaxy or Vor'cha to 3 bug ships.

In the battle to retake DS9 the Fed fleet was outnumbered 3 to 1 but since the majority of the Dominion fleet was bug ships then that makes sense since it would be 3 bug ships to one capital ship. Since the Feds managed to push there way past the Dominion fleet it seems clear that numbers of ships meant nothing in the war it was the size and power of the ships that mattered.

What I would have liked to have seen in DS9 was a special class of vessel built for the war. A vessel that was literally thrown together with minimal systems such as weapons, lifesupport, shields etc etc basically a Federation bug ship counterpart.
We saw entire starships being built to FULL specs which makes no sense in wartime.
had the Feds thrown ship together instead of building to full specs then perhaps the Feds could have built ships faster than even the Dominion.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo, in addition to what I Am Legend said, I'd like to point out that the dominion tried to blow up the BAJORAN SUN, not only destroying a large allied fleet, but killing BILLIONS OF BAJORANS.
The fact thet the federation didn't mine the wormhole and declare war on the dominion in the next second can only be described as pacifism taken to such an extreme that it becomes suicidal/idiotic.
I have no problem thinking that the federation hesitated to close the wormhole regardless of the number of ships coming through if the federation refused to close the wormhole after the attempted GENOCIDE OF BILLIONS!

 

[Timo]

Timo, you're missing the point that the Cardassians played a major role.
The Cardassians although not a major player in the Alpha Quadrant was still a force to be reckoned with, they had wars with the Federation which lead to the creation of the DMZ. The Klingons war against them hit heavy resistance.

Maybe. Then again, no Cardassian ship ever seemed to pose a threat to Picard - or even Sisko, once the latter got rid of the Cardassian junk he originally had to use for fighting the Cardassians... Picard (or Worf, manning Picard's guns) was more concerned about the Talarians, even!

Cardassian shipyyards already existed and no doubt began construction of bug ships whilst new shipyards were built or upgraded.

Indeed, the large dockyards Worf destroyed on his "mission of penace", as well as the ones our heroes infiltrated to get to a Breen energy damper, seemed like Cardassian designs, probably built before the war (even if later boosted by Dominion tech).

Another reason the Dominion seemed to build ships faster was because their ships were smaller.

Then again, the Dominion also built much larger ships than the Alpha powers. And apparently way faster: we saw that single battleship in "Valiant", then at least half a dozen more in "What You Leave Behind", whereas we have no evidence that the Feds ever built another Galaxy or Nebula during the war. All Federation ships save for a few Defiants had registries dating to the prewar days... And, if registries don't convince, were all of prewar designs, too.

Timo, in addition to what I Am Legend said, I'd like to point out that the dominion tried to blow up the BAJORAN SUN, not only destroying a large allied fleet, but killing BILLIONS OF BAJORANS.
The fact thet the federation didn't mine the wormhole and declare war on the dominion in the next second can only be described as pacifism taken to such an extreme that it becomes suicidal/idiotic.

...Of course, it could be that the Feds had a reason for playing for time. If they can't build new starships in time for the war, they'd better make sure that they pull back every single vessel they can from deep space assignments. And that might well take the full two years the Feds stalled before going for broke.

It's just damned bad luck that the fleets only reached striking strength after the Dominion had gotten significant forces through. But that was a carefully staged and timed little play Starfleet played there. By mining the wormhole at that specific moment and not a day earlier, they ensured that their ships would be ready to pounce on Dominion dockyards, at the exact time when the Dominion had to send its ships to stop the mining of the wormhole.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Maybe. Then again, no Cardassian ship ever seemed to pose a threat to Picard - or even Sisko, once the latter got rid of the Cardassian junk he originally had to use for fighting the Cardassians... Picard (or Worf, manning Picard's guns) was more concerned about the Talarians, even!

The pre-dominion war cardassians clearly had weapons inferior to the other alphans. After the cardassians joined the dominion, their weapons were consistently shown to be equal to starfleet's - presumably, they were upgraded with dominion tech.

...the large dockyards Worf destroyed on his "mission of penace", as well as the ones our heroes infiltrated to get to a Breen energy damper, seemed like Cardassian designs, probably built before the war (even if later boosted by Dominion tech).

Then again, the Dominion also built much larger ships than the Alpha powers. And apparently way faster: we saw that single battleship in "Valiant", then at least half a dozen more in "What You Leave Behind", whereas we have no evidence that the Feds ever built another Galaxy or Nebula during the war. All Federation ships save for a few Defiants had registries dating to the prewar days... And, if registries don't convince, were all of prewar designs, too.

But, as I said, we do know for a fact that the alphans kept up with dominion shipbuilding technology, if only "barely". Plus, if the feds&co were as inefficient in building ships as your quote implies, they would have lost the war.

Timo, in addition to what I Am Legend said, I'd like to point out that the dominion tried to blow up the BAJORAN SUN, not only destroying a large allied fleet, but killing BILLIONS OF BAJORANS.
The fact thet the federation didn't mine the wormhole and declare war on the dominion in the next second can only be described as pacifism taken to such an extreme that it becomes suicidal/idiotic.

...Of course, it could be that the Feds had a reason for playing for time. If they can't build new starships in time for the war, they'd better make sure that they pull back every single vessel they can from deep space assignments. And that might well take the full two years the Feds stalled before going for broke.

It's just damned bad luck that the fleets only reached striking strength after the Dominion had gotten significant forces through. But that was a carefully staged and timed little play Starfleet played there. By mining the wormhole at that specific moment and not a day earlier, they ensured that their ships would be ready to pounce on Dominion dockyards, at the exact time when the Dominion had to send its ships to stop the mining of the wormhole.

Timo Saloniemi

The reason you posted can be a valid interpretation regarding why the feds didn't mine the wormhole earier. It also implies that the dominion was free to bring as many ships through the wormhole as they wished without fear of federate repercussions until the federation gathered its fleet.

 

[Search4]

We seem to have drifted off the topic.

So if i can xx off the Cardassians/Dominion.

The Borg have different goals and intentions. Our goals are not their goals.

- Losing a crew member (if that's the term) is not important; they have many thousands on a cube (vs 1000 on the "D") and i'd presume they are downloaded back to a new organically grown body. This is a different strategy than our heroes (who insist on sending in a small team for a firefight) and therefore a very different fighting style and interaction.

- Taking some damage that can be readily and painlessly repaired so that you can learn about the other guys offensive capabilities and neutralize them... forever across the whole fleet... again makes for a different strategy for fighting

- Think of the first cube to attack earth as being on a RECON mission not an attack.

The Borg learned the Federation's weapons capabilities and that they needed intel (hence capturing Picard) in the first engagement. So, how did that work for round 2: pretty well. Even though in the prior engagement three short phaser bursts resulted in significant (24%) degradation, in round 2 they could readily cut down 39 starships with little or no damage.

Sounds like a "clever" approach to me. Hmm, Cube one takes some neglibible damage and gets the intel and Cube two is able to almost wipe out the Federation... in fact is stopped essentially by luck.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I just watched a video clip of Voyager attacking a Borg Tactical cube, they fire two photon torpedoes and Chakotay asks Kim for a report and Kim says "direct hit to their shield generators but no effect".

So Borg Tactical cubes have shields?

I was shocked to see Voyager single handedly take on a Borg Tactical cube and survive about 30 direct hits from the Borgs weapons array.

So do we think all Borg cubes have shields or just tactical cubes? i've never seen none tactical cubes utilise shields.

EDIT: Now I just watched a Voyager clip where they attack a Borg scout, after hitting the scout the Borg on-board immediately say regenerate primary shield matrix.
Borg scouts have shields?

 

[Timo]

Probably the Borg can create shields whenever they want to have them - but the typical Drone, Scout or Cube starts out without having shields or armor or other such encumberances. So the first few shots are always effective, unless the Borg specifically decide to come in prepared.

It's not as if there would have been any emphasized lack of shielding on Borg Cubes. It simply seems that the Cubes seldom employ the transporter-blocking kind of shield. Nevertheless, the Cubes do withstand enemy fire pretty nicely in most cases, which probably wouldn't be possible if they only had physical armor to rely on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Their physical armour on the other hand should be able to withstand multiple shots most likely.
They are quite advanced to begin with ... so it's a bit absurd that phasers can easily incapacitate them through the armour.
Multiple shots as seen on few occasions are reasonable.
Ballistic based weaponry on the other hand should be completely ineffective.
It's body armour after all made of who knows what kind of materials ... Picard's stunt in FC on the holodeck shouldn't have worked as it did.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

My interpretation - over time the borg assimilated thousands of species and their technology (including their military technology). Among others, they assimilated thousands of shield technologies - and other defensive means. When they are attacked, they search in their database the appropiate defense and employ it - sometimes, it involves shields that block transporters, sometimes shields that don't impede transporter beams, sometimes it doesn't use energy shields at all. When they find they don't already have an appropiate defense, they adapt by evolutionary methods - and with a truly magical speed (no doubt, another tech assimilated from a very advanced species).

 

[Timo]

Indeed, there's probably a disadvantage to being a walking Swiss Army Knife. For one thing, if you carry everything as default, you are impracticably heavy. For another thing, you are impracticably spiky...

Having armor is no doubt a disadvantage, as it hinders movement and blocks important sensory and functional orifices. Most shields probably do the same. Such things are only provided for a Drone if they are absolutely needed, then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

As for the Borg as a peripheral threat thing, that wouldn't work. If you mention the Borg as an aside the audience would expect a full-on confrontation and be disappointed it never happened.

And if they did have stories where they fought off a single Cube chasing them it would've just got the same criticisms that VOY got for the Borg anyways, like how the fans were howling their guts out over how VOY irrevocably ruined the Borg by showing that the 8472 could fight them and win.

 

[T'Girl]

The borg aren't cleaver, the borg are relentless.

... and i'd presume they are downloaded back to a new organically grown body

Never saw this, are you thinking of nuBSG?

... in round 2 they could readily cut down 39 starships with little or no damage.

The Enterprise was late to the battle of worf 359, the fleet was already destroyed, the borg cube hadn't moved on, indicating it was heavily damaged.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As for the Borg as a peripheral threat thing, that wouldn't work. If you mention the Borg as an aside the audience would expect a full-on confrontation and be disappointed it never happened.

And if they did have stories where they fought off a single Cube chasing them it would've just got the same criticisms that VOY got for the Borg anyways, like how the fans were howling their guts out over how VOY irrevocably ruined the Borg by showing that the 8472 could fight them and win.

Not necessarily. The Borg wouldn't be a peripheral threat as much as a recurring menace. Think of the Reavers in "Firefly." You don't encounter them often, but everyone is scared shitless of them and therefore knows to run for the hills whenever they do show up. It's just that you have no way to know for sure WHEN they'll show up or what kind of mood they'll be in when they do. Hard to have a full-on confrontation with someone who literally kills people on a whim.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, but Firefly worked with the Reavers because the Reavers were their exclusive creation alone. With VOY the Borg weren't their creation and so this use of them would be frowned upon.

And they couldn't do what you suggest with their own aliens (like the 8472) because everyone hated them (along with every other alien race VOY created).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yeah, but Firefly worked with the Reavers because the Reavers were their exclusive creation alone. With VOY the Borg weren't their creation and so this use of them would be frowned upon.

Would it be frowned upon any more than how they WERE used?

Hell, even in Voyager they could have pulled it off. Prior to the shenanigans in Scorpion that depicted the Borg as a race of hyper-Klingons, the first encounter with the Borg was with that derelict cube and the so-called "Borg Cooperative," and there would still have been room to interpret them in a more nomadic light (and the attack on Earth could be interpreted as the actions of a SINGLE cube that decided all by itself that Earth had some tasty resources.

 

[Anwar]

Would it be frowned upon any more than how they WERE used?

VOY was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for nearly everything it did.

Hell, even in Voyager they could have pulled it off. Prior to the shenanigans in Scorpion that depicted the Borg as a race of hyper-Klingons, the first encounter with the Borg was with that derelict cube and the so-called "Borg Cooperative," and there would still have been room to interpret them in a more nomadic light (and the attack on Earth could be interpreted as the actions of a SINGLE cube that decided all by itself that Earth had some tasty resources.

The other Borg appearances in TNG ("I Borg", "Descent") and the Queen dispel that idea.

And anyways, the only reason the Borg were used as much as they were was because the audience hated every single last alien race VOY ever created no matter how good they were (The Vidiians, the 8472, Hirogen, etc) and forced them to fall back on the Borg.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Would it be frowned upon any more than how they WERE used?

VOY was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for nearly everything it did.

Hell, even in Voyager they could have pulled it off. Prior to the shenanigans in Scorpion that depicted the Borg as a race of hyper-Klingons, the first encounter with the Borg was with that derelict cube and the so-called "Borg Cooperative," and there would still have been room to interpret them in a more nomadic light (and the attack on Earth could be interpreted as the actions of a SINGLE cube that decided all by itself that Earth had some tasty resources.

The other Borg appearances in TNG ("I Borg", "Descent") and the Queen dispel that idea.

I Borg does not. Remember, the spread of Hugh's individuality only affected that one Borg vessel, and even then the Borg ship they did encounter wasn't on its way to assimilate Earth. If anything this is MORE consistent with a Cannibal Nomad version of the Borg.

And the Borg Queen was just fucking stupid. Voyager probably should have treated that as an aberration, a feature of one particular ship and not indicative of the Borg as a whole.

 

[Anwar]

They referenced the "Collective" as a whole in TNG, not as "Individual Collectives". So even then it was clear that there was one big mind controlling all Borg.

Anywho, like I said having the Borg as a random thing they would encounter in space wouldn't be dramatically satisfying. The audience would expect a full-on confrontation and battle instead of VOY running away all the time and be disappointed when all it amounts to is them just hiding or running.