The Borg and JJ's universe

[Gojira]

why didn't The Enterprise E, assisting with First Contact, also creat an alternate timeline?

Picard and crew's actions in ST:FC didn't create an *alternate* timeline, they merely fulfilled the existing one. Meaning: The Ent-E's participation in the events of 2063 was always supposed to happen. It's a predestination paradox.

So does that mean they were there the first time? It seems it would cause an endless loop in the timeline. Just like in the TNG episode "Cause and Effect."

Or is it like the DS9 episode "Trial and Tribu-lation" that was not a predestination paradox?

Do non-predestination paradox's create an alternate reality?

 

[Set Harth]

I think it was that both V'Ger and the Borg are products of an unknown, ancient civilization.

The machine planet alluded to in TMP, right?

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I think it was that both V'Ger and the Borg are products of an unknown, ancient civilization.

The machine planet alluded to in TMP, right?

Nice idea, and great speculative story, IMHO.

No link established or eluded to on screen though.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Do these universes get created, or they always existed. If it was created then the Narada's appearance created a copy of an entire universe and a copy of everyone in it.

So the NuUniverse has no past and didn't exist, therefore no appearances by future visits or anyone else.

I may be wrong, but I don't think anything is copied. It's the same matter, just in a different quantum state. Like those little holograms on credit cards and DVD boxes - same sticker, but if you look at it from a different angle it's a different picture.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Linking the Borg with V'ger for its own sake would be somewhat bizarre. They didn't have that much in common, and in a universe where all species look so similar to each other, casually linking two very different things won't feel right. V'ger's closest thing was Nomad, and the Borg are closest to the repair station in ENT: Dead Stop. I guess most viewers won't know about the repair station, but if anything is linked to the Borg's history, this is the closest match.

On the other hand, a good story of focused on an experimental technology gone wrong that somehow leads to the creation of V'ger and the Borg at the same time would be awesome and creepy, I'd love it. And Dead Stop and Nomad stories could be seen as an example of how such things happened often, but without such disastrous consequences most of the time.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will fit as a plot for one of the films. Maybe a future series.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Also we don't know what changes the Narada caused in the 25 years it was flying around doing nothing.

 

[Kruezerman]

It would be cool to hear the "We are the Borg..." line again though. I'm for it!

 

[DonIago]

I don't know...I'm admittedly curious as to what could be done with the Borg in this day and age...but OTOH, if the presentation was subpar then I'm not sure the franchise would ever recover from it. Above all I'd say whatever would happen would have to compare favorably with BoBW and perhaps FC, and I can see that being a tall order.

Perhaps one advantage of JJ's overpowered TOS-era ships is that they look like they might have a (momentary) fighting chance against the Borg, whereas the TOS ships themselves I wouldn't expect to last more than a minute.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Also we don't know what changes the Narada caused in the 25 years it was flying around doing nothing.

The Narada was tied up at Rura Penthe, where most of it's crew was imprisoned by the Klingons after George Samuel Kirk rammed the Kelvin into it and damaged it, causing it to drift into Klingon space to be captured by a fleet of Klingon ships (as shown in the custscene on the DVD.) Nero broke out of Rura Penthe, got his crew together, and headed to where Spock would come out of the time hole with the Jellyfish-he wasn't waiting for Spock for 25 years.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Which is about enough for a lot of half-Romulan babies to be made in Rura Penthe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If JJ goes with the comics' explanation - that the Narada was retrofitted with Borg technology before its trip back in time - this could actually help the Federation if the Borg show up. We know that Starfleet got ahold of the Kelvin's sensor data on the Narada and used it to upgrade their own technology, so perhaps they've already got a defense against the Borg - even without realizing it. What better to defend against the Borg than technology which was, indirectly, taken FROM the Borg?

Picard and crew's actions in ST:FC didn't create an *alternate* timeline, they merely fulfilled the existing one. Meaning: The Ent-E's participation in the events of 2063 was always supposed to happen. It's a predestination paradox.

So does that mean they were there the first time? It seems it would cause an endless loop in the timeline.

You got it.

 

[TheCutestofBorg]

Ive said it before in other borg threads, so Ill say it again in this one. The Borg need to be more slow moving and relentless like a dreadnought. The movie could start out with Kirk and Co. destroying a medium sized borg looking cube but not knowing what it really was. Then a little bit of time goes by and all of a sudden another Cube shows up, but this time its much harder to destroy. It takes multiple ships and ends up whiping out half the Federations fleet. Now Kirk and the rest of the Federation is a little scared. They maybe recover some of the wreckage from the 2nd cube and begin to analyze it. What they discover is NOT good.
The 3rd act would be a big fight where Kirk and Co has to scramble and barely pulls out a victory.
The borg would work best if they dont just come out and state their objectives. The remain silent for most of the movie.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure whether you meant it this way, but I'm pretty sure if a Borg cube wiped out half the Federation's fleet then the survivors would be far more than "a little scared". That's a level of carnage surpassing Wolf 359.

 

[TOSTNGDS9VOYENT]

A few things to think about.....

1. Alternate timeline ships are much larger and further along technologically, So assuming that the Galaxy class would be even close to its prime universe design, or even built in the first place, would be a shot in the dark.

2. Peoples lives in the Alternate timeline were also changed. So the flow of events in their lives might change in various ways. You might not immediately assume that Nero changed EVERYBODY, but slight differences in one persons decisions affects others and the domino effect creates a ripple through anyone under its influence eventually. Point being, its also going to be potluck if Picard joins starfleet, has similar experiences, and eventually gets command of some ship called Enterprise, whatever that might be in the new timeline.

3. Since Borg technology was used on the Narada, what are the chances that the Romulans didn't have full control of it, and it signaled the Alternate Borg the way the queen would have in FC? This would bypass Q's role completely and bring them even sooner. And if the Narada didn't signal the Borg, the chances that a Picard/Q encounter happen the same way drop dramatically. So we still end up with a "Who knows" situation.

4. All other races who have anything to do with the Federation will have been affected as well by the Narada. We already know that the Klingons technology is most likely different and more advanced due its own research of the Narada. This would affect the Romulans as well, who would have realized that the balance of power had shifted in the Federation and Klingons direction, and so would have brought out bigger and badder ships of their own. Ironically, if Romulan spies got a hold of any info on the Narada, they would have not only noticed the alien (Borg) influences, but also a highly advanced version of their own cloaking technology. The Romulans would be that much more intimidating in the alternate universe.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

If JJ goes with the comics' explanation - that the Narada was retrofitted with Borg technology before its trip back in time - this could actually help the Federation if the Borg show up. We know that Starfleet got ahold of the Kelvin's sensor data on the Narada and used it to upgrade their own technology, so perhaps they've already got a defense against the Borg - even without realizing it. What better to defend against the Borg than technology which was, indirectly, taken FROM the Borg?

The events of the movie don't allow enough time for all the events in Countdown the comic to take place. However the DVD and Blu-ray special features do confirm the Narada was uprgraded at the Vault. So certain things from Countdown are semi-canon with the films.

Picard and crew's actions in ST:FC didn't create an *alternate* timeline, they merely fulfilled the existing one. Meaning: The Ent-E's participation in the events of 2063 was always supposed to happen. It's a predestination paradox.

So does that mean they were there the first time? It seems it would cause an endless loop in the timeline.

You got it.

Sorry sirs and or madams but the events of First Contact did create an alternate timeline. Very similar to the one that existed before but alternate.

The flow of time is a linear series of events of cause to effect. When you time travel you interject persons or things into a place where they had no existed previous. This can cause disruption in time's flow. Depending on the method used these can be large (Star Trek 2009, Yesterday's Enterprise) or small (FC or TVH).

What happens in First Contact is the Borg travel back to 2063 Earth and rewrite history in their own image. We the audience and the crew of the ENT-E saw this from the 24th century. Because the ENT-E was displaced temporally by the wake they were in they existed outside of time and were shielded from the effects. The was no first contact and the Federation and Star Fleet never existed.

So
Unaltered Timeline: 2063-TOS-TUC-TNG-DS9-GEN-VOY-2373 :Erased by Borg's Time Incursion to the past

Borg Timeline of Earth 2063-2373 now established.

The ENT-E crew went back to CORRECT what had been corrupted, and they succeeded. However they failed to prevent several people from dying and had to contaminate the time stream and give assistance and future knowledge to Zefram Cochrane and Lily Sloane. Not to trivialize these details but what was PARAMOUNT about this was ensuring Earth and the Vulcans made contact. This was the broad stokes of history that NEEDED to happen in order to ensure the Federations future.

New timeline: 2063(altered)-ENT-Regeneration-TOS-TUC-TNG-DS9-GEN-VOY-2373(altered).



However this is where the predestination/pogo paradox gets thrown around and it's incorrect. In VOY Year of Hell part 1 7 of 9 states the Borg were present at the events of First Contact. In VOY Relativity she states that the Borg traveled back in time where they SUCEEDED in conquering Earth, but that led the Enterprise following them back and changing the course of events. To which Temporal Star Fleet guy says "in a way the Federation owes it's existence to the Borg". Temporal Starfleet guy.. You're fired.


Had the Borg never traveled back to stop Cochrane the flght would've been a success regardless and the Federation would've been founded.

Relativity and Year of Hell part 1 where Seven brings up the Borg and FC are goofs on the sides of the writers. They were trying to be clever and witty but overlooked what was actually shown in FC. Ask yourself this:

1. How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? If Earth was assimilated in 2063 through 2373 then how does any record of that remain in the revived timeline where the Borg were defeated by the ENT-E?

2. Same question, How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? It can't be a predestination/pogo paradox that the Borg would both succeed in their goals (assimilating Earth 2063-2373) and fail at them in the same span of time 2063-2373.

3. Since the Borg never sent the message to the Delta Quad, thanks to Picard and Worf blowing up the disk. The DQ Borg had no knowledge there were Borg on Earth.

4. The ENT-E crew had the historical logs and the time frame of events of what should've happened down to the letter. The basically steered history back on track. However several people did die and Cocharane, Lily and their colleagues had all seen or at least interacted with the ENT-E crew. All of this is bound to leave impressions and change history.

There was only one timeline which kept getting changed by different parties. We see a similar event occur during ENT with the Xindi Sphere Builders and other Temporal Cold War factions. Everyone trying to supplant the past that exists in order to rewrite the future in their favor.




What we see in Star Trek 2009 is the thing we see in FC to an extent but more so Yesterday's Enterprise. The difference is no one was there to put things back the way they were before. Even when Spock, Kirk and Uhura of the altered time realize they are living in an alternate reality than the one Nero is from they don't try to change things to be what they should be. Rather they continue to live in the reality they do. Similar to how the ENT-D, her crew and Picard himself were all radically different in Yesterday's Enterprise. Time travel effect warp reality and it change their lives and destinies. Basically another time travel fiasco but instead they decide to stay in that reality and live through it.

The Prime Timeline still exists because Nero traversed time using a black hole. Theoritcally black holes are holes in space and by extension holes in time. Making his method more in line with Chaos Theory and Butterfly effect time travel. Where the smallest changes causes ripples through the timeline effecting the universe around it. Rather than String Theory or Linear time travel when events can be supplanted and rewritten.

 

[Gojira]

^ I thank you for that explanation.. however, doesn't that fact that the Enterprise E and company returned to their future as evident in the next movie Insurrection indicate that a time loop was created rather than an alternate timeline

So do you feel that Trek 09 has erased the old time line, written over the old time line?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ I thank you for that explanation.. however, doesn't that fact that the Enterprise E and company returned to their future as evident in the next movie Insurrection indicate that a time loop was created rather than an alternate timeline

So do you feel that Trek 09 has erased the old time line, written over the old time line?

To answer your first question, they returned to an alternate version of their future. Not drastically alternate though. The broad strokes of history had been preserved, and Cochrane and Lily saw the ENT-E and became aware of future events but nothing they could really exploit or distort for themselves. What changed mostly is the lives of Cochrane's friends who worked on the Phoenix dying and by extension not having families who may have existed in to the 24th century. Allegedly the only thing that needed to happen was Earth and Vulcan make contact and move on from there.

No loop, just a continuation of life in the 24th Century. The ENT-E crew probably returned to the very instant they disappeared. Theoretically speaking the ENT-E computers have an untainted log of Federation and Earth history prior to the time travel revision effects. I'm sure when the crew was de-briefed Star Fleet Command and Intelligence sifted through the data to see what was and what is now.


Like I said Nero used chaos theory/butterfly effect time travel to get to 2233 from 2387. With this method simply exisiting in a time and space where you didn't previously occupy causes a tangent universe. Depending on actions it can be roughly parallel to the one you are from, or frakking obtusely different like we see in 09 and Into Darkness. Basically what we have is a Trek Multiverse now.

Here is a quote from Justice League: Crisis on Two Earth's, that adequately explains the multiverse theory,

Owlman: "Welcome to Earth Prime. Before there was thought, there was this place. One Earth. With a single history. But with the coming of man, came the illusion of free will. And with that illusion, came chaos. With every choice we make, we literally create a world. History branches in two, creating one Earth where we made the choice, and a second where we didn't. That's the secret of the universe, you know. Billions of people, making billions of choices, creating infinite Earths. Some so similar to each other that you could spend a lifetime searching for any distinction. Others so radically different, they defy comprehension".


So the Prime-verse is still out there. Alternate realities we've seen in Trek would be VOY's "Endgame" future Earth, TOS 'Trouble With Tribbles supplanted by DS9 'Trials and Tribblations', TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' universe, VOY 'Timeless' future, ENT's 'Storm Front' Earth and other I can't think of atm. What happens our protagonists always leave the alternate world and continue on their journey. JJverse is an alternate world he's filling out and sticking with. Prime events can still happen in JJverse but with this polluted timestream they may happen sooner. Queue Film Spoilers

 

[Gojira]

To answer your first question, they returned to an alternate version of their future. Not drastically alternate though. The broad strokes of history had been preserved, and Cochrane and Lily saw the ENT-E and became aware of future events but nothing they could really exploit or distort for themselves. What changed mostly is the lives of Cochrane's friends who worked on the Phoenix dying and by extension not having families who may have existed in to the 24th century. Allegedly the only thing that needed to happen was Earth and Vulcan make contact and move on from there.

No loop, just a continuation of life in the 24th Century. The ENT-E crew probably returned to the very instant they disappeared. Theoretically speaking the ENT-E computers have an untainted log of Federation and Earth history prior to the time travel revision effects. I'm sure when the crew was de-briefed Star Fleet Command and Intelligence sifted through the data to see what was and what is now.


Like I said Nero used chaos theory/butterfly effect time travel to get to 2233 from 2387. With this method simply exisiting in a time and space where you didn't previously occupy causes a tangent universe. Depending on actions it can be roughly parallel to the one you are from, or frakking obtusely different like we see in 09 and Into Darkness. Basically what we have is a Trek Multiverse now.

Here is a quote from Justice League: Crisis on Two Earth's, that adequately explains the multiverse theory,

Owlman: "Welcome to Earth Prime. Before there was thought, there was this place. One Earth. With a single history. But with the coming of man, came the illusion of free will. And with that illusion, came chaos. With every choice we make, we literally create a world. History branches in two, creating one Earth where we made the choice, and a second where we didn't. That's the secret of the universe, you know. Billions of people, making billions of choices, creating infinite Earths. Some so similar to each other that you could spend a lifetime searching for any distinction. Others so radically different, they defy comprehension".


So when the Enterprise E returned to a slightly altered time line was that

So the Prime-verse is still out there. Alternate realities we've seen in Trek would be VOY's "Endgame" future Earth, TOS 'Trouble With Tribbles supplanted by DS9 'Trials and Tribblations', TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' universe, VOY 'Timeless' future, ENT's 'Storm Front' Earth and other I can't think of atm. What happens our protagonists always leave the alternate world and continue on their journey. JJverse is an alternate world he's filling out and sticking with. Prime events can still happen in JJverse but with this polluted timestream they may happen sooner. Queue Film Spoilers

I think I understand it much better now, thanks!!

 

[Kruezerman]

Well then by that logic, any time a ship goes into the past, a new universe is created, indeed, when the original Enterprise went back to 1969, they did not, in fact, return to THE timeline before it. Going even farther, we must account for the temporal incursions we DO NOT see, so every episode, and every book, and every video game, and perhaps even every scene could be from a minutely different universe. Now this is obviously going a bit extreme with the logic, but current evidence supports neither theory, we are just going by our interpretation of what evidence we have.

After that, we have our faith in the creative minds themselves, they say the timeline is the same and we can choose to believe it or not.

Personally, I couldn't care less, but that's my take.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Well then by that logic, any time a ship goes into the past, a new universe is created, indeed, when the original Enterprise went back to 1969, they did not, in fact, return to THE timeline before it. Going even farther, we must account for the temporal incursions we DO NOT see, so every episode, and every book, and every video game, and perhaps even every scene could be from a minutely different universe. Now this is obviously going a bit extreme with the logic, but current evidence supports neither theory, we are just going by our interpretation of what evidence we have.

After that, we have our faith in the creative minds themselves, they say the timeline is the same and we can choose to believe it or not.

Personally, I couldn't care less, but that's my take.

This is why there is a Temporal Prime Directive, 29th Century Temporal Starfleet and Daniels from the 31st Century all working to keep time incursions and their effects to a minimum. Naturally the writers took the piss with time travel in VOY. Compounding just how random and frequent time travels incursions can happen to a random ship in the delta quadrant. Temporal Star Fleet stated Kirk was a menace when it came to time travel, but canonically speaking Kirk barely used it a handful of times.

Star Trek like comics that deal with time travel follow the linear story from the protagonists POV. If we got into the nitty gritty and analyze every single time an alternate universe was created in Trek we'd go mad.