The Allure of Orions?

[Timo]

...The unfortunate side effect of this is that anybody attempting self-empowerment by deciding to be a mega-slut or a dangerous siren is automatically declared a traitor of all womankind.

Pitting mega-sluts against tight-laced heroes can be made to work in two ways: it can emphasize the commendable self-control of the heroes, or cast them in utterly ridiculous light and pull the rug from under their stuffed-up lifestyle. In serialized entertainment, what are the odds of the heroes being in the wrong? (Before the 21st century, that is.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

...The unfortunate side effect of this is that anybody attempting self-empowerment by deciding to be a mega-slut or a dangerous siren is automatically declared a traitor of all womankind.

First off, I object to your use of the term "slut."

Secondly, very few psychologically healthy people would ever seek to either become a mindless sex object who lives to fulfill men's sexual pleasure, nor a dangerous siren who uses her sexuality to dominate men in all areas of life.

And, no, neither role is one that helps women achieve equality. Both roles are, frankly, signs of severe psychological imbalance. And when these tropes appear in fiction, the narratives that are constructed around these tropes are narratives used to justify patriarchy.

Pitting mega-sluts against tight-laced heroes can be made to work in two ways: it can emphasize the commendable self-control of the heroes, or cast them in utterly ridiculous light and pull the rug from under their stuffed-up lifestyle.

And in either case, such narratives are misogynistic.

 

[Orphalesion]

Heck, ENT went the easy and dull route when establishing that Orions are the green guys!

Before ENT, we only knew that the green gals were "Orion slave girls". Possibly just a green species being trafficked by the Orions (who themselves were as blue as shown in TAS, or then a conglomeration of species, a crime syndicate as in DS9, or whatever), then. Or possibly women of whichever species, tattooed green as a mark of servitude.

Man, I would have liked that idea much, much better! But I admit even as a kid before the Orion Episode of Ent was aired I assumed that Orion Slave Girl meant an enslaved female member of the Orion species.

 

[eyeresist]

Both of those tropes are misogynistic. The first is obviously so -- the mindless sex object who lives to fulfill men's sexual pleasure. But the second is no less so -- the dangerous siren whose sexuality is so potent that she is a danger to men's self-control.

No, the first is about conventional sex roles, but the second is a pure sci-fi concept - mind control via pheromones. It can be analogised to the first one, but is not the same thing.

 

[Sci]

Both of those tropes are misogynistic. The first is obviously so -- the mindless sex object who lives to fulfill men's sexual pleasure. But the second is no less so -- the dangerous siren whose sexuality is so potent that she is a danger to men's self-control.

No, the first is about conventional sex roles, but the second is a pure sci-fi concept - mind control via pheromones. It can be analogised to the first one, but is not the same thing.

The idea of a woman who is so sexually attractive that she can control men is a very old one. It goes at least as far back as the Sirens of Greek mythology. "Mind control via pheromones" is only a modern variation on the concept. And, yes, the concept remains misogynistic.

 

[eyeresist]

^ Well, if that's what you want to think, I can't dissuade you.

 

[Nebusj]

The idea of a woman who is so sexually attractive that she can control men is a very old one. It goes at least as far back as the Sirens of Greek mythology. "Mind control via pheromones" is only a modern variation on the concept. And, yes, the concept remains misogynistic.

What could possibly be misogynistic about the idea that men are doomed to lose their rationality when they get caught in the path of a woman who's shooting out Sex Beams, the way they just naturally can't help doing?

 

[eyeresist]

What could possibly be misogynistic about the idea that men are doomed to lose their rationality when they get caught in the path of a woman who's shooting out Sex Beams, the way they just naturally can't help doing?

But that's not what's happening. Aliens are controlling minds via chemical emissions. Human females are among the victims.

 

[Timo]

First off, I object to your use of the term "slut."

Yeah, yeah, naturally so. But then again, the subject of the argument is the meanings we assign to words, carelessly or maliciously - and, more generally, the labeling of human behavioral patterns as acceptable and unacceptable and then misusing the labels in condemning people who might not even really fall within the parameters of said pattern.

This world is full of people who proudly call themselves sluts. I have vastly more respect for them than for people who condemn them for that choice.

Secondly, very few psychologically healthy people would ever seek to either become a mindless sex object who lives to fulfill men's sexual pleasure, nor a dangerous siren who uses her sexuality to dominate men in all areas of life.

And you think minorities should be suppressed? Cured of their minority?

And, no, neither role is one that helps women achieve equality. Both roles are, frankly, signs of severe psychological imbalance.

So equality equals being average?

Allowing for eccentricity of that sort is the least we can do to offset the worse mental ailments that the society considers normal and commendable for males. Such as the desire for well-off males in their forties to sixties to reserve the right to tell women when to open their legs, and then call that "legislation" or "morale", depending.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

What could possibly be misogynistic about the idea that men are doomed to lose their rationality when they get caught in the path of a woman who's shooting out Sex Beams, the way they just naturally can't help doing?

But that's not what's happening. Aliens are controlling minds via chemical emissions. Human females are among the victims.

You are getting preoccupied with plot devices ("magic sex beams" vs. "pheromone"), and are ignoring the substance of the trope, which is "Sexy Lady = Dangerous."

And, yes, a trope that depicts female sexuality as dangerous to men is inherently sexist.

 

[eyeresist]

We should just ban all fiction where any female makes anyone do anything. Then we'll be safe.

 

[Timo]

Why settle for half measures? Just enslave 'em all and paint 'em green!

The novels make some interesting use of the ENT concept, in some cases before the concept was even introduced. It does limit the story potential of the Orions more than it expands said, IMHO, but many things in Trek work out that way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

We should just ban all fiction where any female makes anyone do anything. Then we'll be safe.

I never said anything should be banned. But the First Amendment does not protect free speech from criticism (which is also free speech).

And, yes, for all of its talk about progressive values and equality, Star Trek has a very longstanding problem with female objectification and sexism, and the entire "Orion slave girl" paradigm -- whether it's the "submissive female who lives to give men sexual pleasure" trope from TOS, or the "dangerous siren who will drive men wild with lust" trope from ENT -- is an example of that.

 

[Timo]

Umm, what talk? Star Trek is about the military sorting out the problems of less-than-human opponents for them.

And no, Star Trek has no problem with female objectification. None at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stardream]

Was there ever an example of it happening the other way around? Men so attractive (or whatever) that they drove women crazy and they couldn't resist them and or did everything they said? I would be of course talking about women who would if in their 'right mind' and not under the influence of such phenomena would not act that way.

Or is there something people would find abhorrent about such a scenario. Or unrealistic? (as if green skinned women were realistic).

 

[Timo]

Was there ever an example of it happening the other way around? Men so attractive (or whatever) that they drove women crazy and they couldn't resist them and or did everything they said?

Well, TOS comes to mind - more specifically, episodes 1 through 78.

I would be of course talking about women who would if in their 'right mind' and not under the influence of such phenomena would not act that way.

But not falling for Jim Kirk is the very definition of mental illness, whenever it happens in TOS.

Or is there something people would find abhorrent about such a scenario.

I'd imagine anybody who is not Jim Kirk or the chick of the week would find something to object to. And nobody gets to be Jim Kirk (except for Janice Lester, of course), so the best hope for happiness is to become his next love interest.

Or unrealistic?

Well, power is an aphrodisiac, or at least something you'd want to pretend is an aphrodisiac in order to get at least some leverage against it. And Kirk has the power to level planets. It's actually rather nice that women have at least some tit-for-tat weapons available, even if they carry the stigma of being stereotypical or demeaning or whatnot.

(as if green skinned women were realistic).

I doubt it would be difficult to do as such. Turning humans permanently green, that is. Having human-looking aliens from outer space may not be realistic, but Trek makes several assumptions in that respect that make the concept a bit more plausible.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mos6507]

We should just ban all fiction where any female makes anyone do anything. Then we'll be safe.

I never said anything should be banned. But the First Amendment does not protect free speech from criticism (which is also free speech).

And, yes, for all of its talk about progressive values and equality, Star Trek has a very longstanding problem with female objectification and sexism, and the entire "Orion slave girl" paradigm -- whether it's the "submissive female who lives to give men sexual pleasure" trope from TOS, or the "dangerous siren who will drive men wild with lust" trope from ENT -- is an example of that.

It's only a problem if you make it a problem.

The fact of the matter is that sex slavery does exist to this day and there's plenty of personal examples of men who have in some way fallen prey to their weakness for the ladies, and well-respected fiction in that genre (think of Lolita, Double Indemnity, etc...).

 

[eyeresist]

Was there ever an example of it happening the other way around? Men so attractive (or whatever) that they drove women crazy and they couldn't resist them and or did everything they said?

I think they tried that in TNG, but the result was ... the man-kini.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Star Trek isn't mysogynist. I'm glad we got that out of the way. Who wants tacos?

All we need now is an explanation why a producer would put a vulnerable character with PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, and a slew of emotional vulnerabilities into a slinky silver catsuit with boob padding and built-in stilettos.

I like Star Trek, but it is clearly written by straight men, for straight men. Oftentimes without an ounce of self-awareness. Not only is there a "social justice" concern here, but also a "I hate being pandered to like a 13 year old boy whose only neurons are in his dick" concern.

 

[Captain Rob]

^^ The answer is blatantly obvious:

RATINGS! MAN! ....RATINGS!