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The aim and precision of a Stormtrooper.

Trekker4747

Boldly going...
Premium Member
is this even funny anymore? I mean, do the makers of these movies even get the ridiculousness this has gotten to? I mean it was already dubious in ANH when we're told that the "preciseness" of the shots taken at the Jawas could only come from Stormtroopers when earlier in that same movie in a hail of laser-bolts they failed to hit two droids moving across the corridor. So why are we being told they're so accurate and precise?

Even in the entire original trilogy we could let them get away with it. Hell, I'll give them the PT as well.

But today? It's a full-on meme. It's a world-wide joke that these guys couldn't hit the broad-side of a barn on accident. So when we see them missing to such great extent in TFA and R1, it's kind of more annoying and eye-rolling than anything else. How are we supposed to take the bad guys seriously when we know in a hail for fire they can't hit things on accident even when they have superior numbers by several factors?

Give me, *something*: Someone explaining to someone how a blaster works and saying something like, "the blaster bolt itself only has an effectiveness of 5% so you need a lot of shots to get even one hit unless you have a very expensive, and rare, weapon." But, come on, it's getting ridiculous.

Hell, the "stun setting" blasters apparently have -used only once- seems to have a much greater effectiveness and a "wider" field of impact. Why not use that to put people out and then waste them with lethal shots when they're all out?
 
They're just afraid that if we ever see the Empire actually being GOOD at something, that it may be construed as advocating the Empire.

So naturally the Empire has to suck at anything and everything under the sun. :lol:
 
I don't disagree with you on any point, but it's a long-established "fact" that the bad guys can't hit the broadside of a barn except when there's a tussle with the hero and the bad guy's shot misses his mark and hit's the hero's love interest.

Look at shows like the A-team or even the old G.I. Joe cartoon... Millions of shots fired and nary a hit on the good guys...
 
Obi-wan was pointing out the accuracy of shots on the Sand Crawler, as in hitting the points needed to disable it correctly rather than the Sand People who would likely just keep shooting it until it stops or explodes.

So they have A-Team accuracy. Can hit a small point on object from a moving vehicle, but not a single character.
 
Well, in TV shows we're dealing with bullets fired at "practical" speeds and the odd dynamics of a bullet usually meaning you have to shoot where your target is going to be be and not where it is. In modern warfare 95% of the rounds fired is more for suppression than it is wounding.

But in Star Wars when dealing with laser bolts, while apparently not traveling at c are likely traveling vastly faster than a physical bullet, and with rounds filling a corridor and the speed of the shot meaning you can fire directly at a target it seems to me a miss with a "laser" weapon would be a lot harder than with a bullet.

Yeah, the bad guys being terrible shots is sort of a trope of every bad-guy but usually when dealing with guns there's a lot more involved. Stopping, planning the shot, aiming, firing, the travel time of the bullet, movement of the trarget, etc. Then the "reset" time for the shooter to fire again.

Blasters? You should be able to point and fire and not have to worry about any of practical components of weapons fire. But, it'd seem, blasters just aren't effective.
 
But in Star Wars when dealing with laser bolts, while apparently not traveling at c are likely traveling vastly faster than a physical bullet, and with rounds filling a corridor and the speed of the shot meaning you can fire directly at a target it seems to me a miss with a "laser" weapon would be a lot harder than with a bullet.

This isn't how blasters work, though. Considering we can visually see and track blaster fire, it must move considerably slower than even a bullet.
 
Blasters seem to be more plasma weapons than laser weapons really. They even have a kick when fired so they have recoil of some sort.
 
I dunno, being able to "visually track" the laser fire I'd hardly take as being indicative of how "fast" the shot is moving. I mean, if it's moving slower than a bullet does then why use the blasters at all and just go back to using projectile weapons?

The visual effect is there for our benefit like the muzzle flash we often see with guns in movies, something not common to real-world guns.

So, while I'll "grant" that the "laser" bolt likely isn't moving at c I'd like to think it is moving at faster-than-bullet speed in order for them to be considered a weapon worth using over bullets. (But, then again, they use hovering/floating machines on desolate worlds like Tatooine where wheels would work just as well if not better and not need to be maintained.)
 
Considering that Kylo Ren was able to stop a blaster blot in mid-air with the Force, yet it kept isn't velocity in tact once he released it....not sure what it is.

One thing about Star Wars technology is that for them, all this stuff is old tech. It has been around for millennia. Hyperdrives are at least a thousand generations old by human standards to back when the Republic came about for the Jedi to protect. floating machines have likely been around nearly as long if not longer. Blasters in some form or another are at least several thousand years old. They might refine them to make them more efficient, thus needing smaller power packs, or more efficient use of tabana gas or whatever they use as the medium for the bolt, but they are basically the same for an extremely long period of time. I don't think we every see anyone run out of shots, but we see people with extra clips and the like. Were the clip on Han Solo's heavy blaster pistol is suppose to hold something like a hundred shots before it needs replacing, and the gas doesn't need replacing for something like 500 shots or something if they are separate.
 
Here's the thing: Stormtroopers aren't soldiers, they're mostly a paramilitary police force. And not even a modern semi-competent ones; remember that Star Wars pulls mostly from fantasy tropes so that means Stormtroopers are basically like the halfwit conscripted foot-soldiers one might find hanging around an occupied village, bulling local merchants and terrorising the farmer's daughters. They're the hordes of inept palace guards that the hero mows through to rescue the Princess from the evil sorcerer.

They're not meant to be proficient, they're meant to be disposable tools of oppression. It's the same thing with TIE Fighters. Small, cheep, easy to mass produce, easier to replace and rely on sheer overwhelming numbers over one-to-one tactical superiority. Hence lacklustre training, crappy armor, cheap inaccurate weapons and a suicidal approach to battle tactics.

This is actually very smart of Palaptine. You don't want a highly effective military force just in case they suddenly start getting ideas of their own, like "why is that guy in charge anyway?" It's in his best interest to keep them inept and unimaginative. Indeed the whole Imperial system seems to be set up specifically to prevent ambitious climbers from getting too much power. I mean just look what happened with Krennic. Clearly this is not a meritocracy.

The Imperial military isn't there to deal with external threats because there really aren't any. Just a lot of little ones spread over thousands of worlds. Their function is to perpetually step on the necks of the disenfranchised. They're goons. That's why they can hit much of anything.
 
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Also, there's the bit in Rebels where we find out the helmet just obscures their vision making it difficult for them to even target properly.
 
Weren't the original Storm Troopers the Jango Fett clones? And assuming Obi Wan was on Tantoine for most the years between RotS and A New Hope.... the troopers he remembered were precise. But as they died off and/or needed more troops, conscripted folks that they wanted to use more as blaster fodder than specific missions, might bereally bad. After all, they never expeted anyone to infiltrate the Death Star...
 
Weren't the original Storm Troopers the Jango Fett clones? And assuming Obi Wan was on Tantoine for most the years between RotS and A New Hope.... the troopers he remembered were precise. But as they died off and/or needed more troops, conscripted folks that they wanted to use more as blaster fodder than specific missions, might bereally bad. After all, they never expeted anyone to infiltrate the Death Star...

From the recent books it seems they were mostly aged out surprisingly early on. The Ahsoka novel is set about a year after Order 66 and all of the troopers she encounters are new recruits. There's even a comment made about her being less worried than if clones were after her, the implication being the lower standards of their training being instantly evident.

Which makes sense, the clone were intensively trained and conditioned since the moment they were created. All the new troops are liable to get is a few weeks running obstacle courses, reciting loyalty oaths and shooting in the vague direction of targeting remotes.

Also, are people forgetting Kenobi's whole "clumsy or random as a blaster" speech? Those things are inherently difficult to aim so it takes some considerable training and discipline to be accurate. Add to that the E-11 is probably a cheap piece of crap blaster. Speaking of, I've always found it interesting that the E-11 is clearly designed with a folding stock and we've *never* seen it used.
 
Clone Trooper are awesome at their job. Stormtroopers are embarrassing to the old Clones, and they wear "junk armor" according to Rex, Captain, ret. Grand Army of the Republic. (501st Legion under General Anakin Skywalker).
 
is this even funny anymore? I mean, do the makers of these movies even get the ridiculousness this has gotten to? I mean it was already dubious in ANH when we're told that the "preciseness" of the shots taken at the Jawas could only come from Stormtroopers when earlier in that same movie in a hail of laser-bolts they failed to hit two droids moving across the corridor. So why are we being told they're so accurate and precise?

Even in the entire original trilogy we could let them get away with it. Hell, I'll give them the PT as well.

But today? It's a full-on meme. It's a world-wide joke that these guys couldn't hit the broad-side of a barn on accident. So when we see them missing to such great extent in TFA and R1, it's kind of more annoying and eye-rolling than anything else. How are we supposed to take the bad guys seriously when we know in a hail for fire they can't hit things on accident even when they have superior numbers by several factors?

Give me, *something*: Someone explaining to someone how a blaster works and saying something like, "the blaster bolt itself only has an effectiveness of 5% so you need a lot of shots to get even one hit unless you have a very expensive, and rare, weapon." But, come on, it's getting ridiculous.

Hell, the "stun setting" blasters apparently have -used only once- seems to have a much greater effectiveness and a "wider" field of impact. Why not use that to put people out and then waste them with lethal shots when they're all out?

1) Stormtroopers are conscripts, taken from their homes at a young age and indoctrinated by the Empire to serve for years, possibly decades, without much hope of an end to their service except severe wounds or death. And with the prolific use of cybernetic organs/limbs and whatever is rumored to possibly be going on with the "Death Troopers" (if their name is literal) not even that is a guarantee of freedom. When you're not fighting you're relegated to performing menial tasks like sanitation or guarding empty tractor beam shafts with no railings in the Death Star. You get no reward, you get no vacation, and PTSD and fatigue means you are considered uncommitted to the Imperial cause and a traitor, relegated to a prison work camp or killed. It's not a system that engenders voluntary loyalty, so troops may not be that enthusiastic about fighting the enemy if they've lived long enough to overcome the initial indoctrination, and may not try that hard to kill them.

2) The Empire is perpetually at war or suppressing revolt. That means there's a high turnover rate for Stormtroopers and new conscripts are constantly being rotated in to fill the gaps in the unit. New conscripts do not have extensive combat experience and are thus not as cool under fire, making them more liable to miss unintentionally.

3) Psychologically, killing your fellow human(oids) is contradictory to normal human behavior, so many of them may miss intentionally or not fire their weapons to avoid killing. The methodology of the original SLA Marshall study in WWII has been called into question, but further studies (not just Dave Grossman's) have seemed to lend some credence to the theory and as a result training and tactics were changed to compensate and the accuracy and ability to fire of soldiers in combat was improved. The Empire being a totalitarian government based on using fear as a motivator however, they might not have considered such research worthy of their time.

4) As mentioned above, from a certain point of view, namely Obi-Wan's after living on Tatooine for twenty years, the last time he likely saw Stormtroopers in action were when they were still Clonetroopers, who were much more accurate and deadly in combat.

5) The amount of missing the target the Stormtroopers actually do is often misinterpreted or overestated. For example:
— In A New Hope, the Stormtroopers taking the Tantive IV were pretty deadly shots, but on the Death Star they were terrible. But it can be inferred that the Death Star troopers were specifically instructed to let Han, Leia, and Luke escape so that they could board the Millennium Falcon and be tracked back to the Rebel base, just like the TIE fighters were told to do.
— In The Empire Strikes Back, the Stormtroopers on Hoth seemed pretty deadly in taking over the Rebel base, but the Stormtroopers on Cloud City were terrible shots. But once again, at least in regards to Luke (the ones firing on Lando and Leia have less of an excuse), they were specifically instructed not to kill him but just to drive him towards a confrontation with Vader.
— As far as the Ewoks defeating the Stormtroopers, yes, it looks bad, but it should be noted that history is full of examples of indigenous peoples or guerrilla fighters using far less advanced weaponry to fiercely defend their home from outside invaders who lack the same dedication to cause that they have. Usually the more advanced force will win the day in a protracted war (unless you can wear them down and make the war too costly in lives and treasure back home), but this was just a single battle, and the Ewoks had help from Rebel commandos. Also, Chimps look cute and cuddly too, but they're pure muscle underneath the fur, much stronger than humans, and will rip your face off, literally. Let's not forget that the Ewoks also caught the Rebels, and were preparing to eat them (or that there were empty Stormtrooper helmets around the celebratory feast bonfires at the end). Ewoks are tiny balls of fury.
— On Scariff, the Stormtroopers were facing well trained and better motivated volunteer Rebel troops firing from behind cover or on-the-move and with air support much of the time, so it took a while to defeat them. The Stormtroopers fighting K-2SO weren't inaccurate, as they hit him several times, he's just exceptionally difficult to destroy.

6) The Force may assist you until your destiny —whatever that may be— is fulfilled. Chirrut was damned near untouchable until he flipped the master switch on, after which he was almost immediately shot down. The Force may have literally been one with him, protecting him and guiding him to play his part in the grand course of events. Likewise with Luke, Leia, Han, Lando and others who had a significant role to play on the galactic stage.

7) Directed energy weapons have all kinds of problems that don't always make them ideal, especially as an infantry weapon. Remember the scene in Stargate SG-1 where O'Neill and Carter school the Jaffa by doing a demonstration of the accuracy, penetration, and rate of fire of the P-90 versus their staff weapons? Similar principles apply to blasters. On the small scale they're a weapon of intimidation and fear rather than a weapon of war. Now since both sides use them it's largely a moot point, but it also accounts for Stormtrooper inadequacies on occasion. Plasma particle beam weapons like blasters experience thermal or electrical (if they're charged) blooming in atmosphere (meaning they spread out and become less effective), they're line-of-sight only, they overheat easily, etc.

8) It's a movie, they have hero shields right up until the moment they need to make the heroic sacrifice.
 
4) As mentioned above, from a certain point of view, namely Obi-Wan's after living on Tatooine for twenty years, the last time he likely saw Stormtroopers in action were when they were still Clonetroopers, who were much more accurate and deadly in combat.

I'm going to throw a flag out on myself for meta-posting; but this is sort-of retro-active thinking and ignores the expositional purpose for Obi-Won's line. It's pretty clear by now, and we should all know this, that Lucas didn't have shit written or planned out before hand, hence the original release of "Star Wars" being a one-off and not presented as being the fourth part of a larger story.

When the line was written it was intended to be taken as absolute truth as back-door exposition in order to explain to the audience how much of a threat Stormtroopers present in stories we're supposed to take characters at their absolute word, particularly if they're the protagonists, because their lines are the means to explain thing to the audience.

In the "reality" of their world, yeah, Obi-Won hasn't dealt much, if at all, with "modern" Stormtroopers and is only familiar with "Clone Troopers" so that could account for the accuracy judgment disparity. But in the real world? Clone Troopers and why their accuracy would be any different than Stormtroopers doesn't exist because Episode 1 doesn't exist. The "Clone Wars" was just a expositional/back-story flavor dropped because it sounded "futuristic" or "spacey" or whatever and not with any intent or plan as to what it actually entailed.

So Obi-Won's judgment is on "modern" Stormtroopers because that's how we're supposed to take it and it'd seem they're overall not very good shots. Though the rest of your points hold some validity in that they may have been intentionally "missing" in order to provoke a preferred outcome.
 
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