That's when everything changes.. speculation?

[Bones2]

Wait, there was a point that Doctor Who took itself seriously?

About 37 years and a TV Movie, yes.

See Starker's post. I think Tom Baker is a perfect example.

I disagree that any of that counts as the show not taking itself seriously in the way new Who often does (another good example being that fucking Chucklevision routine with the buckets in Love and Monsters, though that episode went on to commit worse crimes). Though Tom was at times completely brilliant in a way perhaps no other Doctor quite matched, his smug pratfalling lowpoint of season 17 (City excepted) is as close to that kind of thing as old Who got. Turning the Daleks into buffoons in Destiny, for example, is similarly poor. If it was all real (and we need a fairly great suspension of disbelief for Doctor Who), would the Doctor really leave a parking brake on every time for 700 years? It's Moffat saying "I know, it's all silly nonsense a bit, this Doctor Who lark" out of a fannish embarrassment for the show. And why would a time machine that operates in that way have a parking brake? It's not funny, it's certainly not clever, it makes no sense, it's a kick in the continuity to anyone who cares a lot about Doctor Who, and - perhaps worst of all - it contradicts the fact all Tardises have made that noise even when implied to have been piloted perfectly (Romana piloting the Doctors' Tardis in the quite sublime Pirate Planet, the Master, the Rani). If anyone read the recent comments by Jimmy McGovern about Doctor Who, he pointed out much the same problem - not the parking brake, but the knowing postmodern refusal to risk being a completely serious and engaging drama.

 

[VDCNI]

Yes the quite sublime Pirate Planet with that ultra serious moment when a robot dog battled a robot parrot.

 

[Guartho]

Ah yes, I've seen the Pirate Planet. It was fun. It was also a perfect example of how classic Who didn't worry about taking itself too seriously.

 

[Bones2]

Well, you say that, but while you can have moments of levity in a story, it's not the same as the writer effectively going "fucking ridiculous, this Doctor Who thing".

 

[Starkers]

Wait, there was a point that Doctor Who took itself seriously?

About 37 years and a TV Movie, yes.

See Starker's post. I think Tom Baker is a perfect example.

Yup Tom was capable of being very serious or very silly. I like the notion that the TVM took itself seriously...obviously nobody told Eric Roberts at the time

 

[VDCNI]

Well, you say that, but while you can have moments of levity in a story, it's not the same as the writer effectively going "fucking ridiculous, this Doctor Who thing".

So basically in Doctor Who that you like they are moments of levity, in Doctor Who you don't they are the writer making fun of the show - well I'm glad we've cleared that up.

 

[Bones2]

I'd object equally if one of the old Doctors had said "silly twat I am, I've been leaving the brake on, despite every time any Tardis has been perfectly piloted it's made that noise". Tom playing a bit of a joker in the role is something completely different to that.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

So you'd object to the exact joke you are objecting to now regardless of when it was said even though it obviously wasn't said before without any willingness to find consistency in your complaint with regards to every other inside joke, breaking of the fourth wall, or related meta humor that the show has had in the past.

In other words, meta humor is OK, as long as it doesn't involve TARDIS parking brakes?

 

[Bones2]

The number of examples of meta humour of that kind can be counted on one hand, and when it's purely intended to be a kick in the continuity to piss off the stuffy old fans who care about that sort of thing, I object.

 

[DWF]

I guess nobody remembers this scene then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvqHJpGmLp0

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The number of examples of meta humour of that kind can be counted on one hand, and when it's purely intended to be a kick in the continuity to piss off the stuffy old fans who care about that sort of thing, I object.

Well, I guess since Moffat told you that was why he did it, I can't argue. I would have hoped he knew better than that. Shame, really.

 

[Bones2]

I guess nobody remembers this scene then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvqHJpGmLp0

Well obviously I did, having mentioned season 17 earlier.

 

[Shatnertage]

I loved the buckets thing in Love and Monsters. In general, I like that episode, although the potty humor/blowjob joke schtick brings it down a few notches. It's one of my favorite teases in NuWho. Well, I guess in any Who since Classic Who didn't have teases.

Sometimes they lay the humor on a bit thick for my liking, like with the fish custard bit, but it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the show as a whole.

There are a lot of things that I haven't loved in NuWho, but humor in the show isn't one of them. If Moffat's making fun of the show, he's making fun of himself--he does have a much deeper connection to the show than any of us.

I'd rather have parking brake jokes and even the odd oral paving slab than the dismal stories we got in the late 1980s. I watched Battlefield a little while ago and thought it looked liked everyone just stopped caring--it was honestly hard to get through. You're never going to convince me that JNT and crew were earnest crusaders for their art, and that RTD and Moffat are nothing more than continuity-destroying misanthropes, bent on ruining Doctor Who.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Actually I think Moffat would argue that we all have just as much a connection to the show as he does, he just gets to write and oversee it.

 

[Bones2]

I loved the buckets thing in Love and Monsters. In general, I like that episode, although the potty humor/blowjob joke schtick brings it down a few notches. It's one of my favorite teases in NuWho. Well, I guess in any Who since Classic Who didn't have teases.

Sometimes they lay the humor on a bit thick for my liking, like with the fish custard bit, but it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the show as a whole.

There are a lot of things that I haven't loved in NuWho, but humor in the show isn't one of them. If Moffat's making fun of the show, he's making fun of himself--he does have a much deeper connection to the show than any of us.

I'd rather have parking brake jokes and even the odd oral paving slab than the dismal stories we got in the late 1980s. I watched Battlefield a little while ago and thought it looked liked everyone just stopped caring--it was honestly hard to get through. You're never going to convince me that JNT and crew were earnest crusaders for their art, and that RTD and Moffat are nothing more than continuity-destroying misanthropes, bent on ruining Doctor Who.

I didn't call the entire story dismal, I'm just talking about the Tardis brake bit. Overall I give the Angels two-parter 3 or 3.5ish. And picking out the notoriously poor Battlefield is unfair, considering the other three of that season (Fenric, Ghost Light, and Survival) are all very good or better.

 

[Shatnertage]

They had their moments--Ghost Light is definitely worthy of a re-watch. There's just a weird aura around the show in those days, with the Doctor and the companion in uniforms, that makes it hard for me to connect. It's more of an effort than, say, Carnival of Monsters for me to watch them.

It's all Doctor Who, though, so there's probably something I'll like in all of it.

 

[Guartho]

I had to force myself to finish Fenric.

 

[Bones2]

I had to force myself to finish Fenric.

Blimey, really? It's top 10 stuff for me. Are you much of a classic Who fan?

 

[Gepard]

Much as it pains me to agree with the negativity brigade in here, I also think the "parking brake" joke was lame. But mostly because I felt it was one in a series of events in the first few episodes of S5 that made the Doctor look incompetent via playing second fiddle to other characters who were more competent than he was. (E.g, Amy being more observant and solving the problem in "The Beast Below," River knowing more than the Doctor about...everything in the Angels two-parter). I suppose if it had been presented in a different context, it might have gone over better, but the way it was framed rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Admiral_Young]

River knowing more about the Weeping Angels makes sense since she has knowledge of future encounters with them. Amy making the leap of logic that she did in "The Beast Below" is part of having a human companion around in the first place. Sometimes the human companions see things and realize things the Doctor can't...Donna had several moments of this during series four. Even Rose did. I have no problem with that, that's the entire point of having human companions in the first place. The Doctor sometimes gets so caught up in events that he misses things, doesn't make him incompetent.