That Starbase 11 wall chart - noe in slide form

[aridas sofia]

“1697” is a really interesting number. It’s as if someone were trying to say, “almost like Enterprise”.

THAT’S the kind of number I bet Jefferies would have used to differentiate Constellation, had he the time or decals.

I would agree he was saying with his system- “this is a small fleet of special, hard to build ships. We never get to a hundred in one generation”,

But then, he picks one that is 97, which goes against that idea.

He’s either telling us the numbers don’t matter, or they matter in some other way. After all, “1697” IS almost 1700, so that probably isn’t an accident.

 

[Tallguy]

THAT’S the kind of number I bet Jefferies would have used to differentiate Constellation, had he the time or decals.

On the one hand: I'm sure you're right. OTOH (and I don't know if MJ would have thought the same way we / I do on this) would he have implied that the Constellation was older?

I know fan lore has kind of taken up this notion for various reasons (not the least of which being the Connie's Captain).

He’s either telling us the numbers don’t matter, or they matter in some other way. After all, “1697” IS almost 1700, so that probably isn’t an accident.

That's what I meant by "not thinking the same way we do". They might matter (if they do) "in some other way".

 

[BK613]

For those interested, airhistory.net has a write up of the somewhat convoluted serial and tail numbers the US Army Air Corps/Air Force used over its history. Something MJ would have been aware of with his background as WWII veteran and aviation illustrator.

 

[Dukhat]

“1697” is a really interesting number. It’s as if someone were trying to say, “almost like Enterprise”.

THAT’S the kind of number I bet Jefferies would have used to differentiate Constellation, had he the time or decals.

I would agree he was saying with his system- “this is a small fleet of special, hard to build ships. We never get to a hundred in one generation”,

But then, he picks one that is 97, which goes against that idea.

He’s either telling us the numbers don’t matter, or they matter in some other way. After all, “1697” IS almost 1700, so that probably isn’t an accident.

On the one hand: I'm sure you're right. OTOH (and I don't know if MJ would have thought the same way we / I do on this) would he have implied that the Constellation was older?

I know fan lore has kind of taken up this notion for various reasons (not the least of which being the Connie's Captain).

I'm still not understanding this need to make the Constellation an older ship of a different class, just because of its registry. Putting aside the number which doesn't conform to Jefferies' standard, everything else in the episode seems to indicate that the Constellation is the same class as the Enterprise. I mean, I desperately wanted the SS Tsiolkovsky from "The Naked Now" (and the Oberth class in general) to have been a new design contemporary to the Enterprise-D, as was originally intended by its registry number and launch date from its dedication plaque, but they used the Grissom model instead, and there's just no way around that now. Unfortunately, wishful thinking isn't going to change what's show on screen.

 

[Tallguy]

I'm still not understanding this need to make the Constellation an older ship of a different class, just because of its registry. Putting aside the number which doesn't conform to Jefferies' standard, everything else in the episode seems to indicate that the Constellation is the same class as the Enterprise. I mean, I desperately wanted the SS Tsiolkovsky from "The Naked Now" (and the Oberth class in general) to have been a new design contemporary to the Enterprise-D, as was originally intended by its registry number and launch date from its dedication plaque, but they used the Grissom model instead, and there's just no way around that now. Unfortunately, wishful thinking isn't going to change what's show on screen.

I don't see a reason (or an intent) for the Constellation to be a different class from the Enterprise. Just like all of the second season Starships that we see the intention is clearly that it's "another Enterprise".

She might be (might be) older than the E just because of the registry. But that's nothing that's implied by the episode.

Sheesh. All of the attention given to this wall chart over the years and now there are people who want to say "You know, the size of the Enterprise was never REALLY shown on screen in TOS. Not REALLY."

(Yes, it's my windmill and I shall tilt at it!)

 

[Dukhat]

Sheesh. All of the attention given to this wall chart over the years and now there are people who want to say "You know, the size of the Enterprise was never REALLY shown on screen in TOS. Not REALLY."

(Yes, it's my windmill and I shall tilt at it!)

Well, that's more of an argument for the SNW forum...

 

[Tallguy]

Well, that's more of an argument for the SNW forum...

It'll leak! Mark my words!

 

[Crewman Commander]

This is the Trek Tech forum, not the TOS/TAS forum, anyway.

 

[DSG2k]

“1697” is a really interesting number. It’s as if someone were trying to say, “almost like Enterprise”.

THAT’S the kind of number I bet Jefferies would have used to differentiate Constellation, had he the time or decals.

If everyone knew that there were only so many 1600s, like fifty, and would be no more, starting from 1699 and working your way down would be a nice way of differentiating refits.

 

[aridas sofia]

If everyone knew that there were only so many 1600s, like fifty, and would be no more, starting from 1699 and working your way down would be a nice way of differentiating refits.

That’s an interesting thought.

As for why Jefferies might have wanted to use 1697 instead of 1017, it’s precisely for the reasons being indicated. 1017 seems to say “different kind of ship”. 1697 at least says, “pretty close”. They were trying to communicate to a TV audience, mind you. One that might not know or care about the relationship between say, SBC-127 and 160 and the plans for the Forrestal and Kitty Hawk class carriers and the nuclear Enterprise CVAN-65. (A complicated story for another time but suffice to say, Enterprise started out to be a nuclear powered Forrestal, and Kitty Hawks started out as more Enterprises. And yet they all ended up looking different.)

In other words, the number can be confusing. The fact some people took away from 1017 “must be an older ship” when the intent was to say “just like Enterprise” means it was numbered wrong for the general audience. It needed to have a number that would be visually distinct from 1701 and yet not so different as to infer to a general audience “very different”. And since we are talking about the Stone chart and it had 1697 on it, I’m saying that woulda done the job.

None of this in any way touches upon complications in production and the (iirc) early desire to make the other ship look different. Or the differences between the AMT model and the 11-foot model. It’s just dealing with an intent to say it was just like Enterprise but had to be distinguished in some way beyond being totally wrecked with a lighter.

 

[Dukhat]

As for why Jefferies might have wanted to use 1697 instead of 1017, it’s precisely for the reasons being indicated...

In other words, the number can be confusing. The fact some people took away from 1017 “must be an older ship” when the intent was to say “just like Enterprise” means it was numbered wrong for the general audience. It needed to have a number that would be visually distinct from 1701 and yet not so different as to infer to a general audience “very different”. And since we are talking about the Stone chart and it had 1697 on it, I’m saying that woulda done the job.

I'm still a bit confused as to why you're making a correlation between what registry number Jefferies might have wanted to use, and what was printed on the actual model. Because as far as I am aware, Jefferies had nothing whatsoever to do with the construction or labeling of the Constellation. And they used 1017 because those were the numbers available on the decal sheet. They didn't have a 6 or a 9. Or am I misunderstanding you?

As for the idea that it's an older ship based solely on that number...I mean, sure, it could have been older. But that's really not all that relevant when the ship looks just like the Enterprise.

 

[DSG2k]

Regarding registry numbers for TOS: I think that anything past four numbers (especially when you add in dashes) becomes needlessly convoluted to the general tv audience.

I'd earlier suggested NCC2 or NCD or somesuch to avoid five digits or encroaching on another class, and/or the idea of the Jefferies modifications allowing for number reuse, but a simpler solution dawned on me: a leading zero.

So, the 115th ship of the fifth generation/class could be NCC-0514, for instance, without reusing numbers (much), screwing up whatever NCC means, or being confusing when the 25th generation/class comes along as might occur even with NCC2 since we don't typically pronounce the dash.

There's no TOS precedent, of course, but it works.

 

[BK613]

As for the idea that it's an older ship based solely on that number...I mean, sure, it could have been older. But that's really not all that relevant when the ship looks just like the Enterprise.

Yeah, I mean, it's almost as if someone was selling a model kit that looked that and calling it Enterprise...

 

[aridas sofia]

I'm still a bit confused as to why you're making a correlation between what registry number Jefferies might have wanted to use, and what was printed on the actual model. Because as far as I am aware, Jefferies had nothing whatsoever to do with the construction or labeling of the Constellation. And they used 1017 because those were the numbers available on the decal sheet. They didn't have a 6 or a 9. Or am I misunderstanding you?

As for the idea that it's an older ship based solely on that number...I mean, sure, it could have been older. But that's really not all that relevant when the ship looks just like the Enterprise.

We are in this thread discussing the list of ships on that Court Martial graphic. That is something that Jefferies DID (presumably) have something to do with - or actually made.

As for the AMT model, why would you think he had nothing to do with its construction? I mean, he gave clear instructions for the building of the three foot and eleven foot models. He was art director. It would be an abrogation of his responsibility to just leave the thing to someone else without any direction at all. We assume the number was 1017 because of the decal sheet (a good assumption, I think) but that isn’t the point. The point is to figure out this Commodore Stone chart. Jefferies either cared enough to make the numbers make sense or he thought it didn’t matter. I think the former. You may disagree. But I’m assuming those Court Martial ships - including 1371 - AND Doomsday Machine’s Constellation, all fit into some scheme. I may be wrong, but that is why I am tying them together. He was meticulous and I have spent a lot - too much - time trying to get into his thinking. I believe he wanted them to make some sense.

 

[Dukhat]

We are in this thread discussing the list of ships on that Court Martial graphic. That is something that Jefferies DID (presumably) have something to do with - or actually made.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

As for the AMT model, why would you think he had nothing to do with its construction?

Because it was just an off-the-shelf model kit with battle damage, utilizing the decals from said model. Anyone could have built that thing or labeled it. If Jefferies was directly involved, I'm sure he would have either wanted an actual filming model built (with a corresponding registry that fit his scheme) or at the least have custom decals made that would have been in-line with his scheme. Since neither of those things happened, I have to go under the assumption that he had nothing to do with the model's construction.

I mean, he gave clear instructions for the building of the three foot and eleven foot models. He was art director. It would be an abrogation of his responsibility to just leave the thing to someone else without any direction at all. We assume the number was 1017 because of the decal sheet (a good assumption, I think) but that isn’t the point. The point is to figure out this Commodore Stone chart. Jefferies either cared enough to make the numbers make sense or he thought it didn’t matter. I think the former. You may disagree. But I’m assuming those Court Martial ships - including 1371 - AND Doomsday Machine’s Constellation, all fit into some scheme. I may be wrong, but that is why I am tying them together. He was meticulous and I have spent a lot - too much - time trying to get into his thinking. I believe he wanted them to make some sense.

But the chart still has nothing to do with the Constellation's registry. You can assume all you want that he 'really' wanted the ship to have a 1697 registry, but there's no evidence that this is the case. That's literally doing the same thing Jein did: making assumptions about which number went with which ship based on zero ironclad information. You're assuming that he wanted the ship on screen to be a different class only because of the registry. All we have as evidence is an AMT Enterprise model kit that was clearly standing in for another ship of the Enterprise's class. I don't even think that the '1017' arrangement was even supposed to be an indicator of how old the ship was. It was just an arrangement to distinguish it from the Enterprise.

 

[Tallguy]

If Jefferies was directly involved, I'm sure he would have either wanted an actual filming model built (with a corresponding registry that fit his scheme) or at the least have custom decals made that would have been in-line with his scheme.

You seem to think Jefferies would have been outside the bean counters. He would have been THE bean counter. This WAS an actual filming model. It was built in such a way that let him build Vaal and any other production considerations for season 2 (including the Doomsday Machine itself). They didn't have the money or the TIME for custom decals and he knew 1017 saved him both.

 

[Dukhat]

You seem to think Jefferies would have been outside the bean counters. He would have been THE bean counter. This WAS an actual filming model. It was built in such a way that let him build Vaal and any other production considerations for season 2 (including the Doomsday Machine itself). They didn't have the money or the TIME for custom decals and he knew 1017 saved him both.

So if that was the case, why didn't he just have the model labeled '1710' to line up with his scheme?