That Starbase 11 wall chart - noe in slide form

[Tomalak]

The elephant in the room is that Jefferies' system was rather swiftly contradicted by the show itself in The Doomsday Machine.

Once you've established that 1017 is a ship that looks exactly like the Enterprise, it's not a stretch to think 16XX ships do too.

 

[Ithekro]

Probably should have been NCC-1710, but there are only so many combinations for a stock decal sheet of "1701" from model kit.

SNW has shifted that a bit with ships with the Constitution-class USS Cayuga being NCC-1557, and the Sombra-class starships like USS Peregrine being NCC-1549.

 

[aridas sofia]

I have long lamented the absurdity of the Jein supposition . . . the wacky reverse-alphabetical idea, the idea of all of them in one spot, et cetera . . . and Okuda's adoption of it. But, in Jein's defense, my understanding is that the Jefferies numbering schema wasn't necessarily as well publicized as the list of names from TMoST, the FJ lists, et cetera. Is that accurate?

I was not aware of Jefferies’ ideas for what the NCC number meant until, I think, the interview he did with the BBC not long before he died. I suspect Greg Jein in 1974-75 was in contact with more people in the know than I was, but he likely would have needed to talk to Jefferies himself to get that nugget. So yes, the idea that the number reflected sequence of design and sequence of build within that design was almost certainly unavailable to him. That is, unless he’d talked to a Matt Jefferies in the mood to share.

 

[aridas sofia]

Probably should have been NCC-1710, but there are only so many combinations for a stock decal sheet of "1701" from model kit.

It’s tempting to think the rationale for making Constellation’s number be 1017 was the decal sheet until you remember that somebody had to hand paint, or create a decal for, “U.S.S. CONSTELLATION”.

I think the system went out the window because either, 1017 was supposed to look distinctly different from 1701 and time restraints led to the AMT model being used and nobody changed the planned number (unlikely), or Jefferies himself decided to hell with the system because he had to very clearly indicate Enterprise and Constellation were different ships.

The only way to make his system fit with such a decision would be to posit that Constellation was an older ship that had been refit to be similar in appearance to Enterprise. Which is what fans did.

 

[TIN_MAN]

It’s tempting to think the rationale for making Constellation’s number be 1017 was the decal sheet until you remember that somebody had to hand paint, or create a decal for, “U.S.S. CONSTELLATION”.

I think the system went out the window because either, 1017 was supposed to look distinctly different from 1701 and time restraints led to the AMT model being used and nobody changed the planned number (unlikely), or Jefferies himself decided to hell with the system because he had to very clearly indicate Enterprise and Constellation were different ships.

The only way to make his system fit with such a decision would be to posit that Constellation was an older ship that had been refit to be similar in appearance to Enterprise. Which is what fans did.

This also begs the question as to whether the Constellation should be considered one of the "12 like in the fleet" that Kirk had in mind when he made that statement?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I admit, I do like the FJ order of registries even though it has its own oddities as well, and some numbers (notably the Constellation's) don't match the on screen model.

The Constellation registry number is given in the FJ Tech Manual as NCC-1017, exactly what was on screen.

The elephant in the room is that Jefferies' system was rather swiftly contradicted by the show itself in The Doomsday Machine.

Once you've established that 1017 is a ship that looks exactly like the Enterprise, it's not a stretch to think 16XX ships do too.

Agreed.

But there are reasonable head canon ways of making it otherwise. One can say that NCC-1017 was originally built as an older class ship that was at some point experimentally refit to Constitution-class. Not every older class ship needs to have been refit in this way.

 

[Tomalak]

The Constellation registry number is given in the FJ Tech Manual as NCC-1017, exactly what was on screen.



Agreed.

But there are reasonable head canon ways of making it otherwise. One can say that NCC-1017 was originally built as an older class ship that was at some point experimentally refit to Constitution-class. Not every older class ship needs to have been refit in this way.

Absolutely. That's my point, Jefferies' original intention was never depicted on-screen, and indeed quickly contradicted, so I see no fundamental issue with Jein deciding that all ships on the chart were Constitution or otherwise rebuilt to Enterprise equivalent.

At that point, we only knew of one Starship class.

 

[aridas sofia]

Absolutely. That's my point, Jefferies' original intention was never depicted on-screen, and indeed quickly contradicted, so I see no fundamental issue with Jein deciding that all ships on the chart were Constitution or otherwise rebuilt to Enterprise equivalent.

At that point, we only knew of one Starship class.

The fundamental issue, at least as I see it, is Jein’s (and later, Okuda’s) decision puts 10 of these “only 12 like her” ships in one yard, under repair, at one time. That’s like having 9 of the 10 Nimitz class carriers in Norfolk under repair at the same time. (The largest number out of service at one time that I know of was 2012-14 when four were undergoing refueling at three separate yards.) It would never happen and people with military experience like Roddenberry and Jefferies knew that. So they would never have made such a decision.

 

[Ithekro]

Even if we assume that only the 17xx ships are Constitution-class, there are five of them on the list.

 

[aridas sofia]

Even if we assume that only the 17xx ships are Constitution-class, there are five of them on the list.

I agree and have wondered for a long time how in the world the decision to put five on that list reinforced the idea that Enterprise was a special ship going where no man had gone before. SMH.

Just goes to show that even those people weren’t perfect. The list should have read something like

NCC-709
NCC-1631
NCC-1703
NCC-672
NCC-664
NCC-697
NCC-1701
NCC-718
NCC-1685
NCC-170

But of course, that kind of treatment of NCC numbers is seen through the FJ lens and would have run afoul of Jefferies’ system.

 

[Henoch]

The fundamental issue, at least as I see it, is Jein’s (and later, Okuda’s) decision puts 10 of these “only 12 like her” ships in one yard, under repair, at one time. That’s like having 9 of the 10 Nimitz class carriers in Norfolk under repair at the same time. (The largest number out of service at one time that I know of was 2012-14 when four were undergoing refueling at three separate yards.) It would never happen and people with military experience like Roddenberry and Jefferies knew that. So they would never have made such a decision.

I agree, the list is NOT a list of Starships at Starbase 11 for repairs, rather is a list that shows the current status (% complete perhaps in its mission or maintenance cycle) of all Starships in Starfleet.

My interpretation of Starbase 11's chart in Court Martial where “% Complete” may status a ship's completion into a 2-1/2 year planned maintenance cycle or about 2500 stardates from launch, i.e. midpoint of a 5YM. In Court Martial, stardate ~2950, there are only 10 ships of the Starship Class in Starfleet service as shown on the chart. At that time, the Intrepid can be the ship at 100% Complete and at Starbase 11 for her planned maintenance (status-ed with green bar). I have the NCC-1631(Intrepid) originally refit as a test bed under Science Captain Krasnovsky (hence his Blue tunic) to evaluate the new systems. Shortly, it will be put back into regular service crewed by Vulcans. The refit Enterprise launched under Captain Kirk is the first ship put into regular service. Note the chart shows NCC-1701 (Enterprise) at ~83% Complete into her cycle or about 2 years after her refit launch (which occurred around stardate 1000). Just a little later in Tomorrow is Yesterday, stardate ~3100, two more Starships must have came into service bringing the total up to 12 ships per Kirk. Ships on the wall chart would be either 16XX or 17XX to denote the change in starship class construction over a period of time, and that the 17XXs were the newest starships by this episode. YMMV

 

[Unicron]

The Constellation registry number is given in the FJ Tech Manual as NCC-1017, exactly what was on screen.

You're right, my brain was a bit fuzzy. I stand corrected. For some reason I was thinking it had been changed to 1710 to be more consistent with FJ's system, but that registry actually belongs to the USS Kongo.

This is why I should be more careful about posting after a long day at work.

 

[Yaroze86]

I agree, the list is NOT a list of Starships at Starbase 11 for repairs, rather is a list that shows the current status (% complete perhaps in its mission or maintenance cycle) of all Starships in Starfleet.

My interpretation of Starbase 11's chart in Court Martial where “% Complete” may status a ship's completion into a 2-1/2 year planned maintenance cycle or about 2500 stardates from launch, i.e. midpoint of a 5YM. In Court Martial, stardate ~2950, there are only 10 ships of the Starship Class in Starfleet service as shown on the chart. At that time, the Intrepid can be the ship at 100% Complete and at Starbase 11 for her planned maintenance (status-ed with green bar). I have the NCC-1631(Intrepid) originally refit as a test bed under Science Captain Krasnovsky (hence his Blue tunic) to evaluate the new systems. Shortly, it will be put back into regular service crewed by Vulcans. The refit Enterprise launched under Captain Kirk is the first ship put into regular service. Note the chart shows NCC-1701 (Enterprise) at ~83% Complete into her cycle or about 2 years after her refit launch (which occurred around stardate 1000). Just a little later in Tomorrow is Yesterday, stardate ~3100, two more Starships must have came into service bringing the total up to 12 ships per Kirk. Ships on the wall chart would be either 16XX or 17XX to denote the change in starship class construction over a period of time, and that the 17XXs were the newest starships by this episode. YMMV

I would assume the next two would be Kongo and Defiant? Or should they have been in service before Tomorrow is Yesterday? Even though one would think the Kongo should have already been in service going by NCC-1718 being on the chart. If so then I guess it could be the New Jersey.

 

[Ithekro]

USS New Jersey being NCC-1975 is another thing.

 

[BK613]

Even if we assume that only the 17xx ships are Constitution-class, there are five of them on the list.

But, at max, only four of them are supposed to be there. The Enterprise is not—her layover is unscheduled. And four is certainly a more reasonable number than ten.

That's my point, Jefferies' original intention was never depicted on-screen, and indeed quickly contradicted

The format of numbers in Court Martial can be argued to conform with that scheme and it wouldn't be contradicted until the next season, so hardly quickly.

 

[Tomalak]

The fundamental issue, at least as I see it, is Jein’s (and later, Okuda’s) decision puts 10 of these “only 12 like her” ships in one yard, under repair, at one time. That’s like having 9 of the 10 Nimitz class carriers in Norfolk under repair at the same time. (The largest number out of service at one time that I know of was 2012-14 when four were undergoing refueling at three separate yards.) It would never happen and people with military experience like Roddenberry and Jefferies knew that. So they would never have made such a decision.

That's why it's fortunate that Kirk's line is sufficiently vague, as is what SB11's chart actually shows.

I agree with @Henoch that it doesn't necessarily refer to ships currently in dock at SB11, but overall fleet status.

As for Kirk's Dozen, my head canon is that he's talking about Constitution class ships dispatched on deep space exploratory missions. There are likely more Constituons in the fleet, they're just doing other jobs like defence, patrol, supply missions, emergency response for colonies etc. But only those on the 5 Year Missions are commonly referred to as the 'Starships', at this point.

If you go strictly and literally by Kirk's comments, it might be unusual that the Enterprise herself encounters six or seven of her eleven sister ships during the course of the 5YM. So possibly the Hood, for example, is a Constitution Class cruiser, but isn't currently assigned as a Starship on a deep space mission.

 

[aridas sofia]

That's why it's fortunate that Kirk's line is sufficiently vague, as is what SB11's chart actually shows.

I agree with @Henoch that it doesn't necessarily refer to ships currently in dock at SB11, but overall fleet status.

As for Kirk's Dozen, my head canon is that he's talking about Constitution class ships dispatched on deep space exploratory missions. There are likely more Constituons in the fleet, they're just doing other jobs like defence, patrol, supply missions, emergency response for colonies etc. But only those on the 5 Year Missions are commonly referred to as the 'Starships', at this point.

If you go strictly and literally by Kirk's comments, it might be unusual that the Enterprise herself encounters six or seven of her eleven sister ships during the course of the 5YM. So possibly the Hood, for example, is a Constitution Class cruiser, but isn't currently assigned as a Starship on a deep space mission.

That isn’t a bad take on the idea. So in your view, is this chart accounting for the ten surviving starships? If “starship” refers to mission then, they don’t all need to be Constitution class, do they? Or are you saying this particular group of heavy cruisers has been distinctly and extraordinarily uprated?

 

[Henoch]

My opinions:

So in your view, is this chart accounting for the ten surviving starships?

Not surviving, rather newly configured for a 5YM. There are 10 as of stardate ~2950 (Court Martial), and 12 as of stardate ~3100 (Tomorrow is Yesterday) <note: Airdate Order is swapped compared to both Stardate Order and Production Order.>

If “starship” refers to mission then, they don’t all need to be Constitution class, do they?

Correct, we see two class ships (some 1600's and some 1700 Constitution class ship hulls) re-configured into the Starship class ships for the 5YM's.

Or are you saying this particular group of heavy cruisers has been distinctly and extraordinarily uprated?

Correct. Note that there may be several 1600 and 1700 class ships not converted into the Starship class for 5 YM's. Differences versus a Starship class can be in crew size, scientific instrumentation, power plant rating, refueling range, etc.

 

[Ithekro]

USS Defiant is not listed, though we know USS Defiant is already in the fleet in the late 50s, as she is mentioned a patrolling sector 006 prior to USS Discovery's jump into the Mirror Universe.

 

[Tomalak]

That isn’t a bad take on the idea. So in your view, is this chart accounting for the ten surviving starships? If “starship” refers to mission then, they don’t all need to be Constitution class, do they? Or are you saying this particular group of heavy cruisers has been distinctly and extraordinarily uprated?

I'm assuming that all Starships are Constitution spec, but not all Constitutions are necessarily 'Starships'. At this time at least.

This might be indicated by the comms chatter in TMP - "Scout Revere" and "Dreadnought Entente", but the Enterprise is the "only Starship in range". FJ using the same spaceframe for Scouts and Destroyers might also play into this. Same basic ship, but different loadouts and mission profiles. Similarly, Grissom is never described as a "Starship" in the script nor dialogue, just "science vessel" or "scout class".

Maybe even for Pike's Enterprise in The Cage - I could be wrong, but I don't recall "Starship" being used in that episode. It's "Space Ship/Vehicle". And the ship also happens to have half the crew of Kirk's version, perhaps also suggesting a different mission type.

Perhaps Starbase 11 is the home base for the Starship corps, which is why the Enterprise visits twice.

Obviously by the TNG era, basically anything with a warp engine is called a "Starship", but I don't think that was the intent in the TOS era, which is why Kirk is so proud to command a Starship. IIRC the Reliant is the first other ship type to be described as a Starship. But of course in the earlier drafts of the script she was supposed to be the same ship type as the Enterprise!