Some of it, some of it isn't.
"That book never happened!"
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
Some of it, some of it isn't.
Sort of did, sort of didn't. The idea for the other story was one I was working on, having forgotten all about the IFM pitch, when IFM was commissioned out of the blue.
So, on the one hand, I thought "blaze of glory, it'd be a good ending, so I'll stop developing the other idea", and that was the plan until CBS said "Let's not be so definite about it being an ending" - so then I thought "Hm, that other idea is still cool, and would still need the character, so I'll make it a cliffhanger that can lead into the other story, should it ever happen..."
But I still haven't pitched that story cos I'm still working out who and what else needs to be in it, and I'm a bit nervous of whether any over-arcs will get in the way - and the pitches I've got in are all set before anyway.
Janeway is NOT "completely and utterly dead". She exists within the Q continuum. PAD told me he wrote that ending because he didn't think it was a smart move for the franchise to kill Janeway off and wanted to leave the possibility for her return. In a similar way, he was told by his editors to kill Janos in NF but PAD left it open for his return since, once again, he thought the death was a poor judgement call and needless.
Whether Janeway is returned or not matters not to me, I'm not a fan myself, but people who say they would stop reading if Janeway is returned are just as narrow-minded and ridiculous as those who don't read the novels BECAUSE Janeway is gone.
Read the end of "Before Dishonor" again if needed, but readers need to stop writing Janeway off for good. With Q all things are possible and the return of Janeway would in fact make more sense than the return of Spock or Sisko and could be quite interesting if done creatively.
Whether Janeway is returned or not matters not to me, I'm not a fan myself, but people who say they would stop reading if Janeway is returned are just as narrow-minded and ridiculous as those who don't read the novels BECAUSE Janeway is gone.
Read the end of "Before Dishonor" again if needed, but readers need to stop writing Janeway off for good. With Q all things are possible and the return of Janeway would in fact make more sense than the return of Spock or Sisko and could be quite interesting if done creatively.
Actually the end of Before Dishonor never says she's going to exist within the Q Continuum. It just shows Lady Q guiding her to whatever comes next after her death. Anything beyond that is an assumption on the reader's part.
Sci-fi, sure. But does that mean that Trek has to follow along? When death becomes little more than an inconvience, why whould we care if characters die? Other than having go tell the government/employer/family that you're alive again, death isn't really all that bad.
Ever read the SCE story Wildfire? How would you feel if two stories later Kieran Duffy showed up alive and well? It would sort of lessen the impact, wouldn't it?
Ever read the SCE story Wildfire? How would you feel if two stories later Kieran Duffy showed up alive and well? It would sort of lessen the impact, wouldn't it?
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about any death in comics these days. I think it was Peter David who once had Franklin Richards saying that Heaven has a revolving door.
I can understand the need for a "backdoor out" when killing off a major character like Janeway; while it's unlikely that she'll be used again on film, if she is then the books need to find a way to reconcile that. But when it comes to original characters there's no need for that, so the deaths have more impact.
Hey, if people can assume the four persons line in TNG about Andorian weddings somehow meant four Andorian sexes, I see no reason not to assume Janeway is actually off into the Q continuum...
It's not a question of "assuming" anything. The writers of the novels chose to interpret the line about Andorian sexes in a certain way because that was what provided, in their view, the most interesting stories. Now, nobody has chosen to follow up on Janeway's, err, afterlife to date, but if some writer did so in the future, they wouldn't necessarily establish that she was living in the Q Continuum, because there's nothing in BD that actually specifies that.
All I'm doing is clarifying what the text actually says and doesn't say. Whatever assumptions you choose to make beyond that are your own business, but those assumptions won't necessarily line up with the choices made by future novelists who might hypothetically return to this subject. That's why it's important to at least keep track of the difference between what's actually written in a text and what's an assumption beyond the text.
All I'm doing is clarifying what the text actually says and doesn't say. Whatever assumptions you choose to make beyond that are your own business, but those assumptions won't necessarily line up with the choices made by future novelists who might hypothetically return to this subject. That's why it's important to at least keep track of the difference between what's actually written in a text and what's an assumption beyond the text.
But you said altering consistancy and continuuity was o.k. for a good story. I'm starting to really wonder whether it matters if she is alive or dead from one book to the next. Though tying her into the Q continuum would be a good idea as that is a very hazy place to be. Hey that rhymed with lazy. Continuum was supposed to be Earth anyway where Q still has a vested interest in us.
PAD personally told me that Janeway is existing amongst the Q and that the ending was written by him so that she is not actually dead. His editor wanted Janeway dead but he wrote it to allow for her return. He got hate mail from readers for killing Janeway and his reply was that she was not actually dead. That was from the writer's mouth and how the ending was intended to be received.
She is no more dead than Sisko was between WYLB and Unity.
She is no more dead than Sisko was between WYLB and Unity.
They don't actually have to bring Janeway back in the current novel continunity. A new continunity could be written starting from 2379 (post NEM) and there would be no need to bring her back because she isn't dead.
At the end of the day it's all about selling books and if one set of readers likes a different continunity to the current (and one that will sell books) then there shouldn't be any problem with CBS and Pocket deciding to run with something like that.
The whole point of "killing off" Janeway was to sell books and create a renewed set of interest in Star Trek novels by doing something controversial.
At the end of the day it's all about selling books and if one set of readers likes a different continunity to the current (and one that will sell books) then there shouldn't be any problem with CBS and Pocket deciding to run with something like that.
The whole point of "killing off" Janeway was to sell books and create a renewed set of interest in Star Trek novels by doing something controversial.
Until she's killed off again if you don't buy the new books. Some upper level McDonald's Markeying stratagy going on there subconsciously or not. But if there's no reason to do it, conceptions should be respected no matter how painful it is and no matter what great stories can't be told because of it. That's the way the t.v. canon is. The guy who killed Janeway says she's still alive so she's still alive just like Kirk is in the nexus inside Rick Berman's mind, God help us all. The creators own these characters in a way as Star Trek's keys were given to RB and Paramount and CBS with a liscence to kill I guess and the power to resurrect. So Kirk is not dead. Has that been tied down yet? I say bring back Kirk and replace him with another actor on t.v.. Problem solved. The two timelines can visit each other even. GR's intent has certainly been obscured beyond recognition anyway.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he can just bring her back. The whole "bring back Janeway" thing might backfire to the point she's briefly brought back only to be killed off again because her existence screws up the timeline (a'la Engines Of Destiny).
It's very possible that PAD could have nothing to do with Janeway's return because, from what I understand, the publishers issue assignments to writers based on their style of writing and not because they started something and should therefore be the one to finish it.
PAD told me he hated the concept of killing Janeway and felt it would not have the desired results. But he said if he didn't take the assignment, someone else would, so he might as well be the one to make the money.
"Before Dishonor" had Q trying to humble Janeway, to help her see that she wasn't as smart, in control, and indestructable as she thought she was. If she had of listened, her assimilation would not have happened. In Full Circle, it was said Janeway was opposed to the Delta Quadrant mission, not wanting to send her people back there. She was acting like an over-protective mother with her former crew. Now, amongst the Q, she can see that her Voyager family is managing fine without her, that they don't need her over-bearing hand. I like to think that she is receiving the humbling Q said she needed, realizing how small and insignificant one person is in the universe so that she can be returned with a better perspective.
I don't even care IF she is returned or not, though I would have been upset if Sisko never returned. I feel the books are doing excellent without her under Beyer's guidance. People die, that is life. Tasha had a meaningless death bu that didn't bother me. I have several friends who have had meaningless deaths. If we have to accept that with our real loved ones, we need to be able to accept it with our fictional ones. I wish the Janeway/VOY fans could accept she may not come back and enjoy the amazing works of Beyer. What bothers me are those who refuse to get on with the trek universe because one beloved character is not in the story. Do these people spend the rest of their lives in bed when a REAL person passes away? It similarly bothers me when people say Janeway is dead and gone when she is no more gone-gone than Sisko was, Spock was, Data is, or Scotty in the transporter (or anyone in a transporter). Some characters definitely will not be returning such as Tasha and Jadzia, but then again they found a way to return Tasha didn't they?
"Before Dishonor" had Q trying to humble Janeway, to help her see that she wasn't as smart, in control, and indestructable as she thought she was. If she had of listened, her assimilation would not have happened. In Full Circle, it was said Janeway was opposed to the Delta Quadrant mission, not wanting to send her people back there. She was acting like an over-protective mother with her former crew. Now, amongst the Q, she can see that her Voyager family is managing fine without her, that they don't need her over-bearing hand. I like to think that she is receiving the humbling Q said she needed, realizing how small and insignificant one person is in the universe so that she can be returned with a better perspective.
I don't even care IF she is returned or not, though I would have been upset if Sisko never returned. I feel the books are doing excellent without her under Beyer's guidance. People die, that is life. Tasha had a meaningless death bu that didn't bother me. I have several friends who have had meaningless deaths. If we have to accept that with our real loved ones, we need to be able to accept it with our fictional ones. I wish the Janeway/VOY fans could accept she may not come back and enjoy the amazing works of Beyer. What bothers me are those who refuse to get on with the trek universe because one beloved character is not in the story. Do these people spend the rest of their lives in bed when a REAL person passes away? It similarly bothers me when people say Janeway is dead and gone when she is no more gone-gone than Sisko was, Spock was, Data is, or Scotty in the transporter (or anyone in a transporter). Some characters definitely will not be returning such as Tasha and Jadzia, but then again they found a way to return Tasha didn't they?
And no more continuities. We already have the relaunch, Abramsverse, Mirrorverse, and STO-verse. The relaunch is doing fine with many great writers at the helm. I enjoy the continuity they have established.
Y'know, Janeway never left her physical form in the STO-verse. You can read about her in "Needs of the Many."
Y'know, Janeway never left her physical form in the STO-verse. You can read about her in "Needs of the Many."
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