TFF Shuttle

[mos6507]

Nope, brand new, never used before design.

Sorry, I had my logic reversed. TFF made it first, the it was cannibalized for TNG to make the Type 6.

I just assumed that since the budget for TFF was so small that they reused as much as possible from TNG.

It was 78 years later, though, so I would expect technological progression,

That was part of the problem with TNG in general. Why move it 78 years ahead? So that the TOS actors would not be included other than the cameo by an elderly McCoy in the pilot for the hand-off. Of course, they wound up having Spock and Scotty and Sarek show up anyway.

The era that TOS and the movies were in were ideal. When they moved it ahead they shifted the timeline to a much less interesting period in Federation history where there was less exploration left for them to do. TOS felt like a frontier and TNG felt like endless diplomatic missions with the Borg and Q being the main things to liven it up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not to totally derail the thread, but you say it's a common misconception, and I have to think, IMO, that the reason this belief is generally held is because this is what the scientific community is apparently telling us, from what I've been able to gather from all of the contradictory statements I hear from those supposedly knowledgeable about this area of science.

I know. The situation is made all the worse that it's a misconception held by many scientists.

As far as I'm able to perceive, the scientific community absolutely believes that time dilation due to relativistic velocities means that these are not illusory at all -- those people spending all that government grant money are actually telling us that it is real, and they even take it a step further and claim that actual time travel to the past is also possible, basing those claims on the same fundamental theories and equations.

And they will be credible to speak on those subjects if and when they derive a working time machine and/or relativistic spacecraft based on those equations. Until then, the mathematics are easy enough to analyze, and on closer inspection, they do not bear out the more fanciful claims of physicists.

Are you saying the scientific community that has been pushing that for years hasn't really been saying they believe in that stuff?

It's sort of a scientific old wives tale, something people -- even scientists -- tend to accept because they've heard it so many times and they've been told it's true. It's not like they've ever bothered to check; it's not like they ever had a REASON to check.

Put it this way: sixty years from now, filmed on a space station, the broadcast of "Mythbusters: Einstein Special" will shut down the physics departments of every university on Earth for a solid fifty eight minutes.

 

[B.J.]

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....

That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.

 

[The Librarian]

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....

That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.

No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers, no matter what your conspiracy-theory website says. Given that the writer doesn't even believe that stars have fusion reactions inside them or that gravitational lensing occurs, I don't think it's a credible source. Here's a page that describes how it actually works, written by someone who has been directly involved in running GPS.

 

[publiusr]

The gravitational collapse and electric universe types are just young earther creationists going after mainstream science.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers, no matter what your conspiracy-theory website says. Given that the writer doesn't even believe that stars have fusion reactions inside them or that gravitational lensing occurs, I don't think it's a credible source. Here's a page that describes how it actually works, written by someone who has been directly involved in running GPS.

All the guys' whacked-out conspiracies notwithstanding .. the concept of triangulation hasn't changed.

And I could equally call a bunch of scientists who think that empty space can bend a bunch of nuts too.

* shrug *

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

Wrong. Turns out the clocks on GPS satellites are periodically re-synchronized with the ground clocks anyway (every thirty days, I'm told). Even if they weren't, the actual delay due to relativistic time dilation is about 200 picoseconds; this is an order of magnitude less than the inherent delay from electrical propagation in the receiver's actual antenna, which ISN'T accounted for, and cannot be.

Others already beat me to it, but like a lot of things related to relativity, there's a lot more myth than fact floating around.

^
Uh, you know that the only reason your GPS works the way it does is because we've had to compensate for the relativistic effects of the satellites' motion, right?

As for all that other nonsense, I don't even know where to start....

That gets stated a lot by pro-relativists, but it's not actually true. Determining your location via GPS is based on the differences between the time signals of various satellites and not in any way based on the difference between a satellite time signal and the device's Earth surface local time, as is commonly incorrectly believed. http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm

GPS computes time differences between satellites all moving at the same speed relative to each other. GPS doesn't care what time it is where you're standing relative to the satellites. Relativity is irrelevant to GPS.

No, you still have to compensate for relativistic differences between the satellites and the receivers

You don't actually "have" to, since the only applicable affect is due to gravity and the velocity of the satellites is irrelevant. The resulting error would still be a handful of centimeters even if it wasn't compensated for (which is still considerably higher than it would be if you account for special relativity).

Mind you, I'm not saying the GPS system doesn't contain an algorithm to account for relativistic time dilation. I'm saying that if they do, they hardly DEPEND on it, and would in fact be just as accurate without it. Like the Twin Paradox, it's just another piece of relativity mythology that nobody ever bothers to examine closely.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Star System warp is something that they never seem that consistent on. In BOBW they slow down, in TMP they say they have to risk going to warp to get to V'Ger quicker, and in the episode where Bashir is revealed as a Changeling, Dax seems distraught that Kira suggests going to warp as they could fly into the star.

Whilst in TVH they go to warp not only in the Sol System for the slingshot, but with the planets atmosphere. Then in ENT we see the NX-01 warp out after barely clearing spacedock.

I would think that after the subspace damage warp causes was discovered, a ban would be placed on all warp travel in systems (especially inhabited ones), so as to not damage local ecosystems, etc.

 

[blssdwlf]

Star System warp is something that they never seem that consistent on. In BOBW they slow down,

But they do stay FTL all the way to the intercept at Earth.

in TMP they say they have to risk going to warp to get to V'Ger quicker,

With untested engines. The wormhole accident resulted from the unbalanced engines.

and in the episode where Bashir is revealed as a Changeling, Dax seems distraught that Kira suggests going to warp as they could fly into the star.

I think that was "By Inferno's Light". Dax did seem to balk at that although Kira didn't think it would be a problem. However, they've had runabouts at warp in the system as well so this might be specific to the Defiant.

DAX: Its shields are holding.
KIRA: How can that be?
DAX: Looks like someone's been doing some modifications to the Yukon. I'm also picking up large amounts of trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter on board.
KIRA: A bomb. If it explodes inside the sun
DAX: It could trigger a supernova. Wipe out the entire fleet, the station
KIRA: And Bajor. We have to use the tractor beams.
DAX: We're too far away.
KIRA: Wanna bet? Take us to warp.
DAX: Inside a solar system?
​

 

[Timo]

I would think that after the subspace damage warp causes was discovered, a ban would be placed on all warp travel in systems (especially inhabited ones), so as to not damage local ecosystems, etc.

The effect appears to be minimal, though. If it creates observable damage after, say, ten thousand years of normal traffic (or a hundred years of traffic in the Hekaras Corridor which is an exceptional phenomenon squeezing all the traffic for that system into a single lane), then a ban might serve no purpose. In those ten thousand years, technology to reverse the damage would be discovered, or traffic could be stopped 9,000 years into the process.

I think that was "By Inferno's Light". Dax did seem to balk at that although Kira didn't think it would be a problem.

The bigger problem is that a supposedly perfectly ordinary stellar explosion would pose a risk to perfectly warp-capable starships about twice as far from the star than Bajor is. Surely those ships could get their engines up and running in the 15-20 minutes it takes for the explosion to reach DS9?

Mind you, this is an explicitly mentioned threat that comes atop the fact that Bajor itself would fry. So the explosion has to be stopped in any case, but the explicit mention makes the warp limitation issue more intriguing.

We should remember here that Bajor has extremely severe "space weather". It was a central plot point in "Invasive Procedures" and "Things Past", manifesting as special limitations that applied only during those two episodes. Quite possibly, then, "By Inferno's Light" is a third episode where the Bajoran star is misbehaving and making subspace around it difficult to warp through.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

I think that was "By Inferno's Light". Dax did seem to balk at that although Kira didn't think it would be a problem.

The bigger problem is that a supposedly perfectly ordinary stellar explosion would pose a risk to perfectly warp-capable starships about twice as far from the star than Bajor is. Surely those ships could get their engines up and running in the 15-20 minutes it takes for the explosion to reach DS9?

There is another possibility. The warp drive in the "Q and the Grey" had it's warp field collapsed by a supernova's subspace shockwave only "0.02 LY" or 1,264 AU away. Earlier in the episode, the crew comments that Voyager was one of only two ships that have ever observed a supernova within 66 AU. They stayed in front of the (presumably non-subspace) shockwave at full impulse.

Since DS9 (and the fleet) would have been well withing 60 AU from Bajor's star they might also be unable to escape on warp drive.

Also, in "Second Sight" they modified a ship to be able to hit "Warp 9.5" believing that would allow them to escape in case their experiment was going to cause a supernova .

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Have we considered the very real possibility that not all warp drives work the same way... that some ships can safely go to warp inside a solar system -- or even in an atmosphere -- while others are at risk of destroying themselves every time they try it.

They might not bother to specify one way or the other because it's something so fundamental to warp drive that it totally goes without saying. Sort of like NASA astronauts neglecting to explain (for the Audience's sake) why they never fire their maneuvering engines while they're next to a space station, while a Dragon and a Soyuz probably wouldn't have the same limitations.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure how this would be helpful. The same Defiant that may be at risk warping inside the Bajor system in "By Inferno's Light" has no trouble warping inside the Bajor system in most other episodes, and the same Enterprise that slows to impulse in "BoBW" has no trouble warping inside other systems. This evidence would seem to rule out starship type as a factor, while offering two other possible factors: whether the ship catches a system at an opportune or inopportune time for a warp risk, and whether the ship flies in a system posing a warp risk (regardless of time) or in one not posing a risk.

Earlier in the episode, the crew comments that Voyager was one of only two ships that have ever observed a supernova within 66 AU.

Yeah, a good way to explain the threat to the resident fleets... Except for the fact that the same evidence also suggests they could have escaped at impulse speed.

Of course, we don't know what the real intent of the Dominion was in nova-bombing Bajor's star. All we have is hero speculation. Perhaps there was no nova-bomb at all - and the agent posing as Bashir turned part of himself into a bomb lookalike in order to pull a flashy stunt that would divert attention from the other agent aboard the station, at a time when exposure of the Bashir agent was inevitable?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Earlier in the episode, the crew comments that Voyager was one of only two ships that have ever observed a supernova within 66 AU.

Yeah, a good way to explain the threat to the resident fleets... Except for the fact that the same evidence also suggests they could have escaped at impulse speed.

Could have escaped if they were far enough away to start out at. 66 AU would be between the Kuiper belt and the heliosphere if it were the Sol system. That would mean the starships would need to be close to the outer edge of the system to have a chance...

 

[Timo]

But if the Voyager could stay ahead of the destruction front at full impulse (Tuvok says he can't escape three waves, in such a way that one gets the impression there was reasonable hope of escaping the one), should these ships not be capable of the same, regardless of distance?

Or is the ca. 500 minutes it takes for a near-lightspeed wave to cross the 60 AU the magical timespan that an average impulse drive takes to accelerate from zero to near-lightspeed? Sounds a bit high, comparing to the accelerations suggested in ST:TMP and perhaps "BoBW".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Watching the episode again, it turns out the edge of the shockwave hits Voyager after about 20 or so seconds. (I didn't time it). Janeway orders Paris to stay ahead of the "brunt" of the wave. So it would appear that the edge of a supernova's shockwave is FTL. Whether the "brunt" is also FTL (but slower) or STL is unknown.

KIM: That's the edge of the shock wave. The pressure's over ninety kilopascals, thirty percent more than we predicted.
JANEWAY: Tom, back us off at full impulse. I want to stay ahead of the brunt of that wave.
​

Also it is unknown whether TOS' "All Our Yesterdays" has this same problem. TNG's "Generations" also had a nova event but the shockwave was definitely sublight (although it's been a while, did the leading edge of the shockwave reach E-D at FTL speed?)

 

[Timo]

We saw the star go dark well before the space station -pulverizing shockwave hit, so clearly there were two different rates of propagation there. But there was no evidence that the "darkening front" qualified as a harmful shockwave of any sort, and it certainly left the E-D perfectly capable of a warp 1 escape.

It does appear odd, though... There would probably be minutes of difference between the "darkening front" reaching the ship at lightspeed, and the ship's FTL sensors registering the star going dark. Why was the trouble first noted when the heroes saw the "darkening front" hit the portholes? Did nobody look at the viewscreen, where the same event should have been visible minutes before? It would actually be more consistent overall if the "darkening front" moved at FTL speed, and thus the sight of the star going dark reached the E-D almost simultaneously with the star going dark!

That way, we wouldn't have to insert a time delay into the darkening of the Veridian star, either - that phenomenon could also reach across the supposed 1-2 AU, 10-20 minute gap in an eyeblink and allow Soran to see his handiwork immediately.

Although the usual laws of nature can be argued to remain in force at Veridian, because there's no reason not to have an uninteresting gap in action after Soran fires the rocket and before the darkness reaches the planet. Why should the camera record two old men panting like huskies in summer heat, trying to catch their breath for ten minutes before trying to scale the steep cliffs again?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ It's a minor datapoint that suggests at least some of the Enterprise's sensors operate at light speed only.

 

[blssdwlf]

After watching "All Our Yesterdays" it would appear that the TOS Enterprise has no problem warping away although it was technically called a "nova".

"Generations" is an odd duck alright. They see the explosion first with the flash at the cabin window. Then they confirm a "quantum implosion" that is sending a "level 12 shockwave" at them that will reach them in "4 minutes, 40 seconds". But interestingly, Riker says that the "star is going to collapse in a matter of minutes." This would suggest that the "level 12 shockwave" is not part of a "supernova" and that the supernova will occur a bit afterwards. The initial "light flash" does seem to be FTL though. Perhaps later when the Veridian star exploded the "immediate" light effect is normal in TNG star explosions?

So we have:

• DS9 "Second Sight" - escape from a supernova is possible, especially at Warp 9.5 but timing is not specified. Is that before star goes supernova (since they are monitoring the star they could predict a supernova and react to it.)
• DS9 "By Inferno's Light" - escape from a supernova not possible, no reason given
• VOY "The Q and the Grey" - escape from a supernova at impulse power is possible if at least 66 AU away. Shockwave is FTL. Subspace shockwave from supernova collapses Voyager's warp field preventing warp escape.

• TOS "All Our Yesterdays" - escape from a "nova" is possible, at maximum warp

• TNG "Generations" - escape from a "level 12" shockwave is possible at warp speed. Unknown if the star went nova or supernova.