Spoilers TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread

[David Mack]

Hm. I know there were Breen in that prison. But it was run by Jem'Hadar. Maybe we can retcon it to say he had a Breen cellmate and their relationship was … complicated.

Or we can all just agree to pretend that line in Chapter 30 really says "prisoner of the Dominion" and let it go.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

I'm 50 kr so pages into it & love it so far. Like the two Bond references.

 

[JWolf]

I just started reading this one today. I LOVED the Pinky and the Brain reference at the end of chapter three. I now have my hopes up for some, "Shar, are you pondering what I'm pondering?" action throughout the rest of the story.

"I think so Professor, but how are we going to get the thollian on a snowboard?"

I loved that reference. It's a LOL moment.

I'm still not done, but I am past that part now.

 

[ITCH]

I'm going to play the 's advocate for a moment.

I didn’t find President Ishan behavior too off the mark because I have met people like that during my personal and professional life. Heck! I can cite real live politician from presidents to dictators that behave like that one time or another.


It’s been my experience that sometimes no matter how many charts, numbers and reasons you present to prove something is wrong to some people because they just clam up, make a tantrum of power and lead us all to disaster because that particular project was his or her idea so, it’s not about reason, it’s about pride. You read Ishan reasoning of why he doesn’t want to be perceived as “weak” for being so “condescending” to Andor. That’s another way to say that he won’t be “less strong” if compared to Bacco who led the Federation during the Borg invasion.


I also met CEOs who do not talk to anybody in the food chain unless is a mayor carnivore and being the top carnivore he or she can jump to any section of the food chain just like Ishan did while he contacted directly any captain he could think of. So I completely understand his behavior when Bashir “dare” to talk to him directly because to his eyes, Bashir is only grass in the food chain!.


And last, if I were to put myself in Ishan shoes I would think: “20 years ago my people were dying at the hands of the Cardassians and the Federation (including Andor) did nothing even when we would have welcome its help. And now, Andor turn his back on us, refuse our help, joined hands with our enemies, and these damn starfleeters want me to help them?! Well s#$% them!”

 

[Sci]

This wasn't very good - on the plus side it's well-written and the character of Bashir get some good moments but that is outweighed by the problems with the book that are numerous.

Spoiler: spoilers

The first and major one is the central dilemma is poorly set-up, some lip service is paid in the first third of the book to the idea that the information Bashir gets hold of could be used for negative consequences but that idea soon drops away and the reader is hit over the head with how right he is (because he has to be given the structure of the story and the simplistic actions of others).

This is compounded by opponents who aren't really characters as they are strawmen caricatures who only exist to further confirm how right he is in his actions - so there isn't any tension in the book. lead strawman is the President who although it's been hinted in previous books is either not whom he seems or has other problems is simply portrayed without any hint of nuance and might as well be twirling a black mustache. Following his progress in this series, I expect him to be tossing babies in a fire in the next book. Most of the other characters suffer from the same problem to varying degrees (including starfleet Captains who fire on their own without question and invade sovereign worlds at the drop of a hat).

The book then completely falls to pieces when the Andorians seemingly change Government and rejoin the federation over the space of a single weekend in a rather hasty conclusion.

I enjoyed it more than you but would agree the portrayal of the President went way over the top - I expected him to give an evil cackle after every line.

I found Ishan Anjar to be entirely too plausible in his belligerent nationalism. I've met people like him, and frankly view more than a few politicians today as holding values similar to his. I did not see him as Snidely Whiplash -- I saw him as Norah Satie.

It's interesting - we've had a lot of books in the first few years covering the political aspect of the Federation and its members and it does feel that the politicans rarely come out of it well. It fits with our cynical world but jars somewhat in the supposedly more muture & open society of the Federation.

Well, I think the books have a fairly positive portrayal of politicians such as Nanietta Bacco, Cort Enaren, T'Latrek, etc. It's the Min Zifes, Koll Azernals, and Ishan Anjars who come across negatively.

Star Trek has never wanted for corrupt high officials -- the infamous Evil Admirals -- but I think that one of the things we're seeing in modern TrekLit's depiction of Federation leaders is a (perhaps unintentional) long-term meditation on the difficulties in maintaining a government and a political culture which embrace enlightened values, in reflection of the internal conflicts American political culture has suffered in post-9/11 era.

 

[ITCH]

Regarding the captain of the Warspite

Spoiler: About what he did

Yeah, I think a Starfleet captain should know better than participate in an act that could provoke war but… I’m not from the military so I would not pretend to comprehend their behavior and their values as a close society but…. isn’t following you superior’s orders without questioning them a big deal in the military?


At the beginning even Dax was enforcing the embargo against Andor even when she didn’t like it. Is it unbelievable that Captain Unverzagt violated the sovereignty of Andor to fulfill the order given by the Chief in Command in person to retrieve a desertor who is a treat to the Federation’s security? (If you say “yes”, should we review what happened in Panama with Noriega or Pakistan with Bin Laden?)


Dax didn’t comply with Ishan at the end but she knew Bashir’s character, listened to his speech left in the Rio Grande (and even after all that she still arrested him!) but Unverzagt didn’t have the benefit of all that and from his point of view, Bashir is a menace and Dax is helping him so again, s%^#* them!

 

[Annorax]

Bashir recalls being a prisoner of the Breen during the Dominion War.

That was during the early episodes of the final Deep Space Nine arc.

Worf was a prisoner of the Breen, not Bashir. Bashir was a prisoner in a Jem'hadar camp with Garak and Enabran Tain. "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" etc.

 

[DimesDan]

Bashir recalls being a prisoner of the Breen during the Dominion War.

That was during the early episodes of the final Deep Space Nine arc.

Worf was a prisoner of the Breen, not Bashir. Bashir was a prisoner in a Jem'hadar camp with Garak and Enabran Tain. "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" etc.

Well, Mr Mack did say this way back in post 49 of this very thread:

Hm. I know there were Breen in that prison. But it was run by Jem'Hadar. Maybe we can retcon it to say he had a Breen cellmate and their relationship was … complicated.

Or we can all just agree to pretend that line in Chapter 30 really says "prisoner of the Dominion" and let it go.

Oh and it was the season five episodes In Purgatory's Shadow and By Inferno's Light that we discover that the good doctor had been replaced by a Changling and was being held at the Dominion's pleasure. The episodes you cited Annorax were when Odo was being held and the OO and TS launched their per-empitive strike on the Founders home world.

As for the book, am reading it, according to my Nook, I'm 56 pages in and it's an enjoyable read thus far but from reading some of the comments on here, I think I'm only just hitting the "meat" of the story now.

 

[E-DUB]

Found a copy yesterday and am about 100 pages in. Since no one else has mentioned the "Lost" reference, I will. There's a "Lost" reference.

 

[Ronald Held]

Half way through and am finding it interesting. I wonder how many more novels before the Federation election is over?

 

[JoeZhang]

Half way through and am finding it interesting. I wonder how many more novels before the Federation election is over?

I would think it will be wrapped up in the next one given the arc we have seen.

 

[Mage]

Half way through and am finding it interesting. I wonder how many more novels before the Federation election is over?

I would think it will be wrapped up in the next one given the arc we have seen.

It was said that The Fall would cover a period of 60 days. The days it takes for the new election would be after 60 days. So I'm guessing the last novel will end with the election.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

"The Fall" is evidently a specific event, too, within the universe. The Crimson Shadow epilogue notes it's "after the Fall". So maybe it has to do with the special election.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

I just started reading this one today. I LOVED the Pinky and the Brain reference at the end of chapter three. I now have my hopes up for some, "Shar, are you pondering what I'm pondering?" action throughout the rest of the story.

"I think so Professor, but how are we going to get the thollian on a snowboard?"

That was one of a few laugh-out-loud moments, but I think my favorite was the name of one Klingon ship - the I.K.S. ghung'HoH.

 

[David Mack]

^ I was wondering when someone would catch that. The best part is, it makes sense once translated: it means (roughly) "hungry for the kill."

 

[Mimi]

Just finished this last night! So far the Fall has been my favorite crossover series. I really like how the political tension is growing with each novel. I also like that it isn't afraid to focus on characters, despite being a crossover.

Bashir is still not really a favorite of mine, but at least he's found something to stand for. Ezri continues to prove she deserves to be in the captain's chair. The side characters were wonderful too. Kedair has been one of my favorites since Destiny, and she always seems to find a way to do something badass.

My only complaint about the book is that I would have liked a little more interconnectivity with the others. I know each book is being billed as a 'stand alone'...but they're not really stand alone. So you might as well throw in some bits here and there. Seeing DS9 with no mention of the wormhole or the guy that popped out makes it seem like it was completely inconsequential. I would have liked to have heard snippets of what was going on in Cardassia from the other side of things.

Overall though, I enjoyed it, and I look forward to picking up the next one.

 

[Stephen!]

I'm guessing Bashir is going to go rogue and join 31 in exchange for help with the Andorian crisis.

Ironic that they want Bashir to join Section 31, considering that one of their own (former) operatives described him as a dangerous man that would destroy the Federation if given a chance.

 

[Mimi]

I'll admit, I still don't really understand why Section 31 wants Bashir so badly. He seems like he'd be a walking liability. They have other genetically enhanced individuals on call- what makes Bashir worth all the extra effort?

 

[CaffeineAddict]

Found a copy yesterday and am about 100 pages in. Since no one else has mentioned the "Lost" reference, I will. There's a "Lost" reference.

Yeah, that made me laugh.

 

[Kertrats47]

Just posted my review. Loved it! The Pinky and the Brain reference had me laughing out loud.