Terrorist Attacks in Paris

[Oerdin]

It's kind of disappointing that we can't pressure the saudis to stop funding to ISIS...

Of course we need their oil sigh, and the mighty dollar rules everything.

The Saudi government does not fund them and it has indeed outlawed donating money to terrorist groups including ISIS. The problem is individual Saudi citizens do still donate personal money because they agree with the terrorists and believe it is their religious duty to support terrorism against the infidel. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do this and feel this way.

Remember that next time some well meaning but clueless person says "not all muslims..." That is true enough but there are hundreds of millions who do support it and believe the exact same stuff like it is ok to rape nonmuslim women because God said it was ok. If you let that sort of muslim loose in your country then you have a serious problem.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It's kind of disappointing that we can't pressure the saudis to stop funding to ISIS...

Of course we need their oil sigh, and the mighty dollar rules everything.

The Saudi government does not fund them and it has indeed outlawed donating money to terrorist groups including ISIS. The problem is individual Saudi citizens do still donate personal money because they agree with the terrorists and believe it is their religious duty to support terrorism against the infidel. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do this and feel this way.

Remember that next time some well meaning but clueless person says "not all muslims..." That is true enough but there are hundreds of millions who do support it and believe the exact same stuff like it is ok to rape nonmuslim women because God said it was ok. If you let that sort of muslim loose in your country and you have a serious problem.

Hundreds of Millions of Muslims... How many exact is that? Source please?
Remember that there are what... 1.6 Billion Muslims total?
What percentage do you think are terrorists, radicals and sympathizers compared to the people that just want to live their lives in peace?

 

[Oerdin]

Google Salafism and how many Salafists there are in the world. That is the main Sunni branch which all of the Sunni terrorists are members of. Branches of Salafism, such as Wahhabism, are the official state religion of several muslim countries (Saudi Arabia is the most notable) but the Saudis have spent much of the last 80 years exporting that ideology, building Salafist mosques, and paying for Salafists preachers to evangelize over seas.

Now, there are non-Sunni terrorist groups (Hezbollah comes to mind) and there are even non-Salafist Sunni terrorist groups (Hamas is an example) but in terms of the groups which want to wage continous holy war against the infidels and either kill or force them to convert... That is mostly a Salafist thing. You are not going to be able to convince them to hold hands and get along with other people because they believe God has told them to kill or convert everyone. The other billion to 1.2 billion muslims we likely can reach accommodation with but not the Salafists. Not in a million years.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Google Salafism and how many Salafists there are in the world. That is the main Sunni branch which all of the Sunni terrorists are members of. Branches of Salafism, such as Wahhabism, are the official state religion of several muslim countries (Saudi Arabia is the most notable) but the Saudis have spent much of the last 80 years exporting that ideology, building Salafist mosques, and paying for Salafists preachers to evangelize over seas.

Now, there are non-Sunni terrorist groups (Hezbollah comes to mind) and there are even non-Salafist Sunni terrorist groups (Hamas is an example) but in terms of the groups which want to wage continous holy war against the infidels and either kill or force them to convert... That is mostly a Salafist thing. You are not going to be able to convince them to hold hands and get along with other people because they believe God has told them to kill or convert everyone. The other billion to 1.2 billion muslims we likely can reach accommodation with but not the Salafists. Not in a million years.

Did you just suggest there are like, hundreds of millions of Salafists? Because you're wrong, by an order of magnitude. It's more like 50 million, which is about 3% of all Muslims.

 

[Oerdin]

There was an international poll of all the Muslim majority countries that came out earlier this year. It asked people if terrorism was ever justified, if conversion by the sword was justifiable, if killing infidels was justifable, etc... The results ranged from a low of 5% in Indonesia of people saying terrorism was at least sometimes justifiable to a high of 69% in Palestine saying terrorism was at least sometimes justifiable. The world wide average was some where around 15%-20% supported terrorism at least to some extent.

So, you are right, it is not all muslims but it is a very large slice of muslims. Western policy, especially when it comes to who we allow to immigrate, should take that reality into account and some means of screening people for inclinations to support terrorism needs to be put in place. That solves not importing terrorism but there is also a big problem with western born muslims radicalizing especially after listening to Salafist preachers which are found in Saudi financed mosques built all over the west (there are many other Salafist groups but the Saudi state has the resources and will to finance such efforts to find converts).

 

[{ Emilia }]

Did you just suggest there are like, hundreds of millions of Salafists? Because you're wrong, by an order of magnitude. It's more like 50 million, which is about 3% of all Muslims.

And of those the jihadists are the smallest of three sub-groups.

 

[Oerdin]

Google Salafism and how many Salafists there are in the world. That is the main Sunni branch which all of the Sunni terrorists are members of. Branches of Salafism, such as Wahhabism, are the official state religion of several muslim countries (Saudi Arabia is the most notable) but the Saudis have spent much of the last 80 years exporting that ideology, building Salafist mosques, and paying for Salafists preachers to evangelize over seas.

Now, there are non-Sunni terrorist groups (Hezbollah comes to mind) and there are even non-Salafist Sunni terrorist groups (Hamas is an example) but in terms of the groups which want to wage continous holy war against the infidels and either kill or force them to convert... That is mostly a Salafist thing. You are not going to be able to convince them to hold hands and get along with other people because they believe God has told them to kill or convert everyone. The other billion to 1.2 billion muslims we likely can reach accommodation with but not the Salafists. Not in a million years.

Did you just suggest there are like, hundreds of millions of Salafists? Because you're wrong, by an order of magnitude. It's more like 50 million, which is about 3% of all Muslims.

I am including Salafist influenced people as Salafists are extremely active in building free religious schools to indoctrinate students. They are extremely wide spread in the Muslim world except where governments have outlawed them. Those students might not call themselves Salafists but they are steeped in Salafist ideology from a young age. If you ask the Taliban if they are Salafists they would say no but much of their ideology is based upon Salafism, just to give an example.

 

[Oerdin]

Did you just suggest there are like, hundreds of millions of Salafists? Because you're wrong, by an order of magnitude. It's more like 50 million, which is about 3% of all Muslims.

And of those the jihadists are the smallest of three sub-groups.

Earlier we were talking about who funds ISIS. Those Saudi, Yemeni, UAE, and Iraqi Salafists are funding them. They are not directly fighting so they are not counted as jihadists but they are the ones financing the jihadists and singing their praises while urging others to become jihadist. It is a pretty complex arrangement.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Did you just suggest there are like, hundreds of millions of Salafists? Because you're wrong, by an order of magnitude. It's more like 50 million, which is about 3% of all Muslims.

And of those the jihadists are the smallest of three sub-groups.

Earlier we were talking about who funds ISIS. Those Saudi, Yemeni, UAE, and Iraqi Salafists are funding them. They are not directly fighting so they are not counted as jihadists but they are the ones financing the jihadists and singing their praises while urging others to become jihadist. It is a pretty complex arrangement.

And you're over-simplifying it.
The reason the Saudis are funding Salafism isn't simply because they like jihad as you're implying.

 

[Oerdin]

Using the fairly conservative 15% figure you get 225 million muslims world wide who support terrorism against infidels and unbelievers at least some of the time. That 15% figure is pretty well grounded in polling data and that is what I am basing my numbers off of. Salafists are the worst of the worst so even though there are "only" 50 million Salafists there are at least 175 million other Muslims who have a great deal of sympathy for Salafist thought on the topic.

No, that does not mean all 225 million will actively join the holy war against the infidels but it does mean those jihadists will find ample support, financing, and encouragement from those people.

 

[Oerdin]

And of those the jihadists are the smallest of three sub-groups.

Earlier we were talking about who funds ISIS. Those Saudi, Yemeni, UAE, and Iraqi Salafists are funding them. They are not directly fighting so they are not counted as jihadists but they are the ones financing the jihadists and singing their praises while urging others to become jihadist. It is a pretty complex arrangement.

And you're over-simplifying it.
The reason the Saudis are funding Salafism isn't simply because they like jihad as you're implying.

It is the state religion and the royal family's legitimacy rests of it being the promoter and protector of the true pure form of Islam (according to them). The Saudi government has taken steps to make it slightly less radical, starting in the 1970's when radicals tried to over throw the Saudi government, but that has not really worked out so well as it often seems like splitting hairs. The Saudis say it is ok to teach the nonmuslims are inferior, to teach hatred for nonmuslims, but it is no longer allowable to kill nonmuslims.

A page back I linked to an Reuters article which discussed this very problem. Another issue is most Salafists now learn in religious schools outside of Saudi Arabia where the reforms, as limited as they are, are not taught. They still teach the old kill the infidel where ever you find them version of Salafism.

Here is the link again in case you are interested.
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-wahhabi...2399a9285&bcmt_s=u#mediacommentsugc_container

 

[Karzak]

 

[Karzak]

France Vows To Take In 30,000 Syrian Refugees, Makes Republicans Look Like Cowards

“30,000 refugees will be welcomed over the next two years. Our country has the duty to respect this commitment,” explaining that they will undergo vigorous security checks.

Hollande noted that “some people say the tragic events of the last few days have sown doubts in their minds,” but called it a “humanitarian duty” to help those people … but one that will go hand in hand with “our duty to protect our people.”

“We have to reinforce our borders while remaining true to our values,” he said.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

There was an international poll of all the Muslim majority countries that came out earlier this year. It asked people if terrorism was ever justified, if conversion by the sword was justifiable, if killing infidels was justifable, etc... The results ranged from a low of 5% in Indonesia of people saying terrorism was at least sometimes justifiable to a high of 69% in Palestine saying terrorism was at least sometimes justifiable. The world wide average was some where around 15%-20% supported terrorism at least to some extent.

So, you are right, it is not all muslims but it is a very large slice of muslims. Western policy, especially when it comes to who we allow to immigrate, should take that reality into account and some means of screening people for inclinations to support terrorism needs to be put in place. That solves not importing terrorism but there is also a big problem with western born muslims radicalizing especially after listening to Salafist preachers which are found in Saudi financed mosques built all over the west (there are many other Salafist groups but the Saudi state has the resources and will to finance such efforts to find converts).

Link or citation for that "international poll", please.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Using the fairly conservative 15% figure you get 225 million muslims world wide who support terrorism against infidels and unbelievers at least some of the time. That 15% figure is pretty well grounded in polling data and that is what I am basing my numbers off of. Salafists are the worst of the worst so even though there are "only" 50 million Salafists there are at least 175 million other Muslims who have a great deal of sympathy for Salafist thought on the topic.

No, that does not mean all 225 million will actively join the holy war against the infidels but it does mean those jihadists will find ample support, financing, and encouragement from those people.

Poll results really depend on the question being asked. Recently there was a poll showing that 43% of Republicans would support the military overthrowing the government in the US.

 

[Relayer1]

France Vows To Take In 30,000 Syrian Refugees, Makes Republicans Look Like Cowards

“30,000 refugees will be welcomed over the next two years. Our country has the duty to respect this commitment,” explaining that they will undergo vigorous security checks.

Hollande noted that “some people say the tragic events of the last few days have sown doubts in their minds,” but called it a “humanitarian duty” to help those people … but one that will go hand in hand with “our duty to protect our people.”

“We have to reinforce our borders while remaining true to our values,” he said.

Jeez. I've never said this before (old rivalry) -

France, I salute you. You are the better of us.

 

[Karzak]

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

It's kind of disappointing that we can't pressure the saudis to stop funding to ISIS...

Of course we need their oil sigh, and the mighty dollar rules everything.

The Saudi government does not fund them and it has indeed outlawed donating money to terrorist groups including ISIS. The problem is individual Saudi citizens do still donate personal money because they agree with the terrorists and believe it is their religious duty to support terrorism against the infidel. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do this and feel this way.

Remember that next time some well meaning but clueless person says "not all muslims..." That is true enough but there are hundreds of millions who do support it and believe the exact same stuff like it is ok to rape nonmuslim women because God said it was ok. If you let that sort of muslim loose in your country then you have a serious problem.

But if they have outlawed it why can't they clamp down on private donations?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hey a phrase I keep hearing is "no go zones" about France...

Is that really true that there are zones where people are not willing / permitted to go because of the muslim populations there?

What exactly is this "no go zones" stuff about?

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Coco Pops 1967:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp