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Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miffy?

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Guy Gardener

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He did strike down the tower of babel cursing all the people of the Earth with differentiate languages because he was jealous of their potential to perhaps surpass and evolve past the need of a Caretaker... But then these Star Trek people not only unite all the people of the earth again under a single language but for the better part, most of the universe as well!

If God is too angry to say anything about it, sometimes (ironically in this case.) people get so angry they can't form words or sounds, then what about the church? Would they, still respecting god, and fearfully laboring the ineffectual curse on purpose lovingly would they deny themselves of this simple piece of technology as a mild act of piousness?

That's my question.

Can Jeudo-Christians sinlessly use the Universal Translator?
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Be careful. You might be surprised how many people here not only do not share your evident hatred of this group, but how many ARE PART of the group you're trying to make fun of.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Some people have a way to limited understanding of the universe and its size, they for some reason think that the population of this little planet or the planet itself matters, while it is only a little part of a tiny little solar system, which is part of a tiny little galaxy which is part of a tiny little group of about 125 billion other galaxy's, a single electron on this planet is infinitly more of influence then this planet is on an universal scale.

As for his question, what would it matter if the insignificant population of our insignificant little galaxy would speak one language?
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

First, I don't believe in the literal interpretation of Judeo-Christian mythology, but that is irrelevant to your question...

I'd argue that Earth and the Federation are not united under one language. Chekov knew Russian. Uhura knew Swahili. Sulu, I think, knew Japanese. As far as we know, Worf grew up speaking Russian, for instance. We know Quark and friends only know and speak Ferengi, not English, and rely entirely on the Universal Translator. Kira and Dax may only know Bajoran and Trill using the same reasoning.

Your reasoning is further faulty: the UT is a mere tool.

You might as well ask your Christian friends if using an English-to-German dictionary is sinful, if using Google Translate to read a Spanish webpage is sinful, or if hiring a English-speaking tour guide in France is sinful.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

I do not really understand. The UT is a tool to facilitate communication, nothing more.
 
Guy Gardener said:
He did strike down the tower of babel cursing all the people of the Earth with differentiate languages because he was jealous of their potential to perhaps surpass and evolve past the need of a Caretaker... But then these Star Trek people not only unite all the people of the earth again under a single language but for the better part, most of the universe as well!

If God is too angry to say anything about it, sometimes (ironically in this case.) people get so angry they can't form words or sounds, then what about the church? Would they, still respecting god, and fearfully laboring the ineffectual curse on purpose lovingly would they deny themselves of this simple piece of technology as a mild act of piousness?

That's my question.

Can Jeudo-Christians sinlessly use the Universal Translator?

Er, what the hell are you talking about?

The diverse language thing as told in the Bible had two reasons:

1. To stop the pointless constuction of the Tower.
2. To Spread people out.

It seems to have accomplished that.

What you're saying makes no sense.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

What Ancient said...

One small addition, though... the point wasn't exactly to stop the "pointless" construction of the tower. The "point," as the story is told, is that mankind was getting kinda uppity... thinking that they were as great as God was. So, God basically bitch-slapped 'em.

Whether you accept this as literal, or treat it purely as a parable, or as something in-between, the POINT of the story is one of what happens when people start getting a little too full of themselves, and when reality pops up to remind them of just how weenie they really are.

I would HOPE, then, that by the time we actually are traveling the stars, we'll have seen enough to realize just how small and insignificant we are in relation to the universe... how little we actually know. I can't imagine TRUE star-traveling people as being anything less than humble... so the POINT of this story would be sorta "pointless" in that context.

And again, there are a LOT of Christians, and at least a few practicing Jews, who are frequenters of this board. There are also a fair number of atheists.. including a FEW who are "aggressively proselytizing" atheists. As I tend to read the original poster here... attempting to mock those who don't share his own, purely-faith-based belief system (you can't PROVE the non-existence of God, Douglas Adams' Babelfish arguments notwithstanding, so you have no choice but to believe in the non-existence of God as an act of FAITH, after all!)

It's pretty much inappropriate for a TECHNOLOGY forum anyway. Perhaps this could be appropriately moved into a "Trek Philosophy" forum?
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

One small addition, though... the point wasn't exactly to stop the "pointless" construction of the tower. The "point," as the story is told, is that mankind was getting kinda uppity... thinking that they were as great as God was. So, God basically bitch-slapped 'em.

Well, I was being concise, I guess. All of that was in my first point, I just didn't elaborate on the 'why'.

Whether you accept this as literal, or treat it purely as a parable, or as something in-between, the POINT of the story is one of what happens when people start getting a little too full of themselves, and when reality pops up to remind them of just how weenie they really are.
A titanic lesson in that.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Cary, I don't hate Christians or Jews. I just saw an odd relationship between a literal interpretation of the bible and Star Trek lore. So I'm asking a question. Kirk asked god a question once and I think he got shot for his curiosity. Is that the kind of god we're dealing with? Personally, I think it is.

The story of Babel is about hubris. Man got presumptuous and God punished us, just the same as he did to Satan ("Why must I serve, when these hands can preform miracles just as great as his?" (Milton, terribly paraphrased.)) when he tried to take the old mans seat because he got bored of being suck up toady(See Peter Cook in Bedazzeled(1967.).). that's what God did in the old testament, talked loud and carried a big stick, and we were such (*&^'s we probably needed it since we were a savage child race stealing, murdering and fornicating all over the place.

Santaman, humanity was cursed. Witches and wizard get pissy when their curses are lifted. God doubly so. I don't even want to consider the implications if one of us sneaks back over the fence into Eden, what God would do to the rest of us then? God didn't just give every tribe or every nation their own unique language, nothing so fair and imitable as that, but every single person on the planet was given their own language ununderstable to anyone else, isloating the species inside a hundred million intense bubbles of lonliness, just like in the DS9 episode "Babel", or the JLA arc by Waid "Babel" where the Demon made the written word unintelligible in hopes to radically depopulate the planet through humourous misadventure.

God had to accept that man would eventually gravitate towards the ability to communicate again, unless it was a child systematically kicking over the same rebuilt anthills syndrome... But really the universal Translator must be going to far, reversing the curse completely that for appearances sake through a mathematic medium, everyone was speaking the same language and therefore challenging Gods preeminence, and if there's one thing about god I have noticed in the old testament, it is that he is petty, angry and vengeful. We're living under his roof and disrespecting his rules.

Remember when your parents told you not to do things? Told you not to do stuff? And wailed on you if you dared do otherwise than they insisted was in your best interest? The bible is a series of morality fables probably but such fun can be had from the literal interpretation of the more outlandish incidents. My apologies.

Ancient, you seem to have been told a more friendly version of the Tower of Babel than I have ever run across. So I checked up on wikipedia to make sure I wasn't blowing too much smoke out my ass. For the most part they agree with the bitter and angry interpretation I grew up with but here's the point that really fracks with your supposition... According to the book of Jubilees, the Tower of Babel was 2 and a half kilometers tall... Though there are more conservative estimates, that remains the literal facts delivered by the bible. So, God totally unthreatened, he waited till the Tower was 5 times the height of the Empire State Building till he considering mankind was wasting it's time with busy work?

The Klingon's murdered their gods. Other mortals have had just as much luck whacking into other pantheon's fully locked and loaded. Please nte how successful the saint of Killers was in Preacher. But surely the JeudoChristian God had nothing to be concerned about? We can't have been a threat, not now, and not then... So, why with the smacking and cursing? And if he'll do all that for an imagined slight... What about if we really are impudent and disrespectful?

I think the universal translator is baiting god. He set down a pecking order and made the issue clear. No unity, no collaboration, no co-operation, don't even think about trying to seem cooler then he is, so don't eat the bloody apple and don't unify the languages because... He's nervous with an itchy trigger finger to employ curses and banishments when he's being crowded by the new kids on the block looking for fresh fields.

So that's what I rationally believe God would think on the Subject. But it's a question about the Church and the faithful, who do not eat pork ever, or only eat Fish on fridays, who will not tolerated abortion or contraception or stemcell research or homosexuality.

They do what their god says.

God didn't just say, "You will not speak the same language" he didn't even make it a sin to think about it, like with coveting your nieghbours wife on top of already telling you you're not allowed to sleep with her like you can't be trusted to even think about stuff you're not allowed to do... God made it physically impossible like genetically removing a limb or appendage that will never grow back and your progeny will never exhibit. Is it really wise to mess around with someone this powerful with such intense issues on the subject?
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Eh, to hell with God(s), they never did anything to benefit us, so skrew em with a phillips I say.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Guy Gardener said:
Cary, I don't hate Christians or Jews. I just saw an odd relationship between a literal interpretation of the bible and Star Trek lore. So I'm asking a question. Kirk asked god a question once and I think he got shot for his curiosity. Is that the kind of god we're dealing with? Personally, I think it is.
I don't think you'll find a Christian or Jew anywhere on these boards... or anywhere else... who sees God as the vengeful, petty jerk you describe.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Cary L. Brown said:
(you can't PROVE the non-existence of God, Douglas Adams' Babelfish arguments notwithstanding, so you have no choice but to believe in the non-existence of God as an act of FAITH, after all!)
You can't prove the non-existence of Unicorns or Leprechauns either. So by that logic not believing in Unicorns, Leprechauns, the Tooth Fairy et al is an act of FAITH. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Argus Skyhawk said:
Guy Gardener said:
Cary, I don't hate Christians or Jews. I just saw an odd relationship between a literal interpretation of the bible and Star Trek lore. So I'm asking a question. Kirk asked god a question once and I think he got shot for his curiosity. Is that the kind of god we're dealing with? Personally, I think it is.
I don't think you'll find a Christian or Jew anywhere on these boards... or anywhere else... who sees God as the vengeful, petty jerk you describe.

Getting crucified really mellowed the guy out. The new testament is all about this really cool and nice guy doing really cool and nice stuff. I'm talking Old testament. How nice a guy would he have had to have been to flood the Earth killing all those people, ALL THE PEOPLE, hundreds of millions of people and all the animals, billions of species, and trillions of individual animals, what did the animals do? And Why did the fish and amphibians get a pass? ...All because God wasn't impressed with his creation and wanted a do-over? That's worse than genocide... Multicide? inficide? Unicide? And so arbitrary! To top it off he's a liar. That "rainbow" promise that he'd never to flood the Earth again is bogus, since global warming is forcing the ocean levels to rise so significantly that someday soon, within a couple decades we'll be living in Kevin Costner's Water World.

K. Back on point.

The Amish. They're already resisting modern technology for religious reasons. Are they crazy or faithful? Christian Scientists are resisting medical technology for religious reasons. Are they crazy or faithful?

Both groups believe that embracing particular technologies will endanger their immortal souls. Technology can be against God, which forces man to ignore it or deal with unwavering/immaterial consequences. What about the UT?

According to Kirk and Spock's explanation of the UT in Metamorphosis (When they met Zephram.) this technology gets right into your brain and compares emotional ()*&, although in DS9 with those flakey Skreans, it was all about listening and computing contrasted algorithms, which is a hell of a lot less intrusive... But if this tech is even a little bit telepathic then that raises a crap load of privacy issues beyond that everything everyone says in earshot is recorded translated and rebroadcast afterwhich a log of everything said by everyone might exist somewhere... But that's an entirely different issue. Although if this is a telepathic machine inside everyone's heads regulating language, how can anyone be sure what subtle or quantifiable collateral impact is that that telepathic field having on the human consciousness and perhaps soul?

That sounds like a real issue to jump on for the church rather then... What would happen if the Egyptians rounded up all the Jews and enslaved the lot of them all over again? Would God get miffy? Get those plagues of his out of retirement, rain of toad, kill off the first born sons of everyone in Egypt... It's not good to test Gods patience by making him say the same (*&%^ more than once, God forbid twice... It's like that really dire old sexist joke... "What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?"
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

The Borg Queen said:
Cary L. Brown said:
(you can't PROVE the non-existence of God, Douglas Adams' Babelfish arguments notwithstanding, so you have no choice but to believe in the non-existence of God as an act of FAITH, after all!)
You can't prove the non-existence of Unicorns or Leprechauns either. So by that logic not believing in Unicorns, Leprechauns, the Tooth Fairy et al is an act of FAITH. :rolleyes:
Actually, that's quite true. Actually, unicorns (horses with a horn) isn't really all that farfetched, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was such a thing at some point. And the idea of a group of people living in Ireland who hid their treasures, and who were made up of people with dwarfism... sure, not hard to believe it could have existed, too. As for the tooth fairy, that's quite a bit different, because we know the history of where that came from, and we all know that it's really Luigi from North Park who was running the tooth trade...
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Guy Gardener said:
Argus Skyhawk said:
Guy Gardener said:
Cary, I don't hate Christians or Jews. I just saw an odd relationship between a literal interpretation of the bible and Star Trek lore. So I'm asking a question. Kirk asked god a question once and I think he got shot for his curiosity. Is that the kind of god we're dealing with? Personally, I think it is.
I don't think you'll find a Christian or Jew anywhere on these boards... or anywhere else... who sees God as the vengeful, petty jerk you describe.

Getting crucified really mellowed the guy out. The new testament is all about this really cool and nice guy doing really cool and nice stuff. I'm talking Old testament. How nice a guy would he have had to have been to flood the Earth killing all those people, ALL THE PEOPLE, hundreds of millions of people and all the animals, billions of species, and trillions of individual animals, what did the animals do? And Why did the fish and amphibians get a pass? ...All because God wasn't impressed with his creation and wanted a do-over? That's worse than genocide... Multicide? inficide? Unicide? And so arbitrary! To top it off he's a liar. That "rainbow" promise that he'd never to flood the Earth again is bogus, since global warming is forcing the ocean levels to rise so significantly that someday soon, within a couple decades we'll be living in Kevin Costner's Water World.
Sorry, but either your joking or you have zero idea what your talking about. These are the sort of things I brought up...when I was 5 yrs old.

That sounds like a real issue to jump on for the church rather then... What would happen if the Egyptians rounded up all the Jews and enslaved the lot of them all over again? Would God get miffy? Get those plagues of his out of retirement, rain of toad, kill off the first born sons of everyone in Egypt... It's not good to test Gods patience by making him say the same (*&%^ more than once, God forbid twice... It's like that really dire old sexist joke... "What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?"
*sigh* Wow. Well...no...I'm not touching this. :lol:
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Personally, I kind of like the translators used in the My Teacher Is An Alien series. They're directly implanted into the brain, presumably the portion which processes speech, and your brain then hears an appropriate translation even though the audible language you hear might still be alien. Much like learning a foreign language and developing the ability to match foreign words with their English counterparts. This direct implant also allows you to understand a variety of alien gestures.

The translators aren't perfect, since they cannot translate some things into a language whose terminology can't describe it. But they're a lot more practical than the UT, and there's no telepathy.

sunshine1.gif
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Isn't this more appropriate for The Neutral Zone than the Tech forum? It's more about God than the actual tech behind the UT.
 
Re: Surely the Universal Translator would get God a bit miff

Actually, the best translator ever proposed is the aforementioned Douglas Adams' "Babelfish." Which is, quite curiously, a fairly appropriate point for this particular conversation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babel_fish

Existence of God

Adams' description of the Babel fish also triggered a digression about the existence of God, since the Babel fish was put forth as a fideist example for the non-existence of a deity:
“ Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
 
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