Supernatural 5x17 "99 Problems" discussion/spoilerish

[mswood]

Startrekwatcher

Boy I have to disagree about season one (not that I didn't enjoy or love many episodes, hell Faith was the episode that should this show could be great), but I hated Dean for many of the early episodes because all I saw was snark from Dean. As he didn't start developing a more human side until Dead int eh Water. As far as standa alones season one has some of the series worst, episodes like Hook, Route 666, and Bugs that are just awful (though Bugs at least as some nice moments about Sam and John). Really as much as I hated and disliked Changing Channels (due to the leads performances, and much, though not all of the humor) it still had material more gripping then any of the above.

My biggest problem with season 5 was the humor episodes, something season 1 only attempted once (I say attempted because I didn't find Hell Hounds funny).

I mean production wise the show has improved (even with a small budget), casting is general far, far above what season one managed (though they did have some nice actors), character work is far, far superior. Even in crappy episodes the character work beats teh living hell out of the average work in season 1.

When I look at the episodes I would rate as average (or worse). I ahve

Fallen Idols (the confrontation with Sam and dean and Dean realizing his own actions, seemed seriously rushed to me, though I thought Sam handled his end perfectly in character).

The curious Case of Dean Winchester (just an episode trying way to heart to be cute, instead its just soft).

Changing Channels (My least favorite of the season, even though it has about ten minutes that I absolutely love, its just I hate so much about this episode). One of the few episodes where for th bulk of the episode I don't see Dean or Sam I just see Jensen and Jared, which is just a huge huge blunder.

The Real Ghostbusters (I think the most successful humor episode, I actually almost like this one but its at the tell end of this huge run of humor (less) of cute episodes.

Sam Interrupted (What should have been a tour de force for the leads really feels like a first season episode, nowhere near as hard hitting as it should be). It's not a bad episode, but it doesn't do the material justice.

Swap Meat (THere is actually a good story idea in here, but its just played way to soft, and the acting really doesn't stand out.

The rest I give B's or higher. Thats 6 out of 17 episodes that I feel disappointed with (I think an average episode is a disappointment, it might not be bad, but its officially not good). Out of those only two would I rank as actually bad (Changing Channels and Swap Meat, and imagine that critic wise Changing Channels is a critical darling. Lord the media just loves anything that pokes fun of itself.

Season one

Wendigo Sorry its paint by the numbers X-Files, with only Sam's rage about being on a "Typical hunt" that i found enjoyable well that and nutter's directions. Guest actors are cookie cutter bland and by the book.

Dead in the Water - Cliched guest roles, paint by the number story, but it does feature two nice things that almost make me like this episode. One wee see Dean's character start to soften up and grow from just being a snarky ass. And we got some nice direction from manners.

Phantom Traveler - Another X-Files Lite episode. Just no real identity for the show. It;'s not bad, its just there.

Hookman (Crappy acting across the board, just cliched in every possible way) one of the seasons worst.

Bugs cliched guest casts, terrible menace, no sense of danger, and production that utterly fails. Only good part is Sam and Deans talking about Dad's feelings towards Sam. A Bad episode.

Route 666 A killer truck, a romance with zero chemistry, Please skip this episode.


THats 6 episode I would never recommend, and three of them I actually find below average.

Now part of that is because the show is still searching for its identity, the leads (and the writers) are still looking for their characters voices, and my god the guest actors in so many episodes just suck.

I mean look at Bloody Mary (I like this episode) but my god that is some awful acting from some many of the guest actors. Or take the episode Home (nice casting for Missouri, but the rest....Yuck) Production wise, they had not learned how to stretch their budget yet,as the show is very closed. Yet they actually had more production dollars then we have had for the last three seasons.

And episodes that I loved, well we have Faith, and thats it. I would also rate as (what I would call an A- almost great) Nightmares, Scarecrow, and Salvation.

This season I would rate as a classic Abandon All Hope (I Love this episode), and in my almost a great I would put the End, I believe that Children Are Our Future, The Song Remains the Same, And My Bloody Valentine.

As for how I would rank the seasons.

4th Season ( Just a great season, hell the worst episode was a myth arc episode yeah Heaven and Hell I 'm talking to you).

2nd Season (And here the myth arc episode weren't that strong), but we had several strong stand alones.

Season 3 An extremely uneven season. That started weak, got very strong midseason, and ended fairly well. But thanks to the writers strike we had some episodes that never got the final writers polish, and we had episodes rushed into production, we also had (again thinks to the writers strike) a big jump in the nature of the episodes. Thinks to episodes like Fresh Blood, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Jus in Belo, Mystery Spot, Time Is on My Side and No Rest for the Wicked I almost put this higher then season two. But Season 2 was more consistent with fewer average or worse episodes.

1st Season

Right now I would place this season between 2nd and 3rd. But how it ends up will really be impacted by the rest of the season. It could easily drop to being the worst or it could be my 2nd favorite.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Startrekwatcher
As far as standa alones season one has some of the series worst, episodes like Hook, Route 666, and Bugs that are just awful (though Bugs at least as some nice moments about Sam and John). Really as much as I hated and disliked Changing Channels (due to the leads performances, and much, though not all of the humor) it still had material more gripping then any of the above.

The scene with the trickster revealed himself was decent-I wouldn't consider it gripping but it was one scene that comprised a few minutes.

I didn't say season one episodes were necessarily gripping but they got a lot more right in my opinion(char, plot, production, story execution) and were entertaining if not deep. I just enjoyed quite a bit the first blush of seeing these characters on their first adventures. With season 5 I've had whiplash from how uneven the episodes have been and how I've walked away either bored or indifferent. The only awful episode this season was "Changing Channels"--the real problem is the bulk are just dull and I sit there asking myself was it worth sitting through that for just one or two decent character scenes. I expect a lot more than that. SN is all in with character these days so there isn't plot or a fresh tale or a surprising twist or a threat to the status quo to take up the slack.

I honestly believe SN is one of those shows that really would benefit from being serialized since the myth eps have been the best thing this season and for whatever reason it brought out the best in the writing staff.

The only episodes I eagerly watched twice without forcing myself were "Children are Our Future", "The End", "Abandon all Hope", "My Bloody Valentine". The rest I just watched once and in a few cases barely got through that first viewing.

ep 3 name escapes me--was a weak episode--cliched redneck hunters, sam's new friend was a waste, sam's story didn't do much for me, hated the lame humor of castiel trying to get laid. The episode just didn't work for me beyond the interesting stuff with the Archangel.

Fallen Idols--it was fair--certainly watchable but forgettable. 2.5 stars

Curious Case of Dean Winchester--No tension whatsoever--inspired casting though for older Dean. The villian was dull. More inane humor abounds.

Changing Channels--this type of humor just does nothing for me. I know some find it hilarious but it makes me cringe or roll my eyes. All the breaking the fourth wall schtick was lame--the horrible greys anatomy skit, the abominable japanese game show sketch, never liked the trickster or any of his episodes. The revelation of him as Gabriel was semi-interesting. I fast forwarded through most of it. These humor shows really ruin the credibility the show builds up as a serious drama with these kinds of ridiculous stunts. Could you imagine BSG or Lost pulling one of these stories out of their ass?

The Real Ghostbusters--another meditation on the show and about fans--did have some insightful perceptions but the tale itself was tired, no suspense, formulaic action in the next to last act followed by a nice final act that introduces something interesting with Crowley.

Sam, Interrupted--pretty much as I expected another standalone--the creature was lame, the tale was tired, the material wasn't fully mined, the scene with Dean talking about his dad to the shrink takes place offscreen--you have to be kidding me, right?

As you said all these episodes are average. I don't think as a viewer the writers should expect me to be content with mediocrity. It is lucky for them that I'm invested in the show because if this season was what I was introduced to it as my first foray into SN I wouldn't stick around.

"Song Remains the Same" barely eeked out of the average category-I was actually surprised by how ordinary it was. I had gone into it expecting it to be another powerhouse but large swaths of it were rather by the book. It picked up towards the end.

"Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid"-another middling effort. I was no way invested in Karen returning from the dead since I think we only ever heard one brief mention of her two years ago. I also didn't think it helped that Bobby's story was pretty much shoehorned in with a bunch of other stuff--it minimized it and it shouldn't have. More formulaic action sequences lacking tension or excitement. Once again the best part was the fact Death was looking for Bobby--but once againd a mere plot point that may or may not be exploited in the future.

And then "99 Problems" was uneven too. It probably had more plusses but it still could have been much better.

Swap Meat-more silliness. Are the writers grown adults or overgrown adolescents? yuk yuk Sam as a teenage horny boy--dumb, dumb, dumb. And yet another case of anti-climatic action and jeopardy for the principals. If I know they are going to be alright how can I be invested in the jeopardy.

I know many have issues with season one but I honestly didn't have problems with the season and I stand by my earlier post that I enjoyed a great many of the standalones. The more I sit back and think about it yeah I like season one more than 5.

So looking at season 5--I really couldn't go out of my way to recommend ep 3, Curious, Channels, Ghostbusters, Interrupted, Swap Meat, Plaid. I just don't think that is a great track record this year.

 

[mswood]

And I for one can't say I would just want heavy mytharc episodes. As several of them over the years have been really poor.

But first what is a myth arc episode? Is "Children are our future"? In my mind that really is a stand alone as it has very little to do the growing battle between Angel & Demon (though it is connected).

You state that you think the show would work better being serialized (well I think its highly serialized, though not completely), but here is where we disagree. I think one of the reasons for the stand alone episodes to be less enjoyable is that they are having to devote so much time on them for elements that are part of the myth arc, then to truly focus on the primary plot of the episode.

We have both said that we have felt some episodes are too much, that they had more then enough material to spread out. If this was fully serialized, even more aspects would be carried through each episode.

And while I agree that several episodes are average, I have found that is true of most of the seasons. I guess that is where we differ.

One of the things that I found so successfully about last year is that I found very few episodes to be average or worse. they would have been Yellow Fever and Heaven and Hell (can I just say with all the talent they had in casting for that episode, how much I disliked it).

I think the thing that bothers me the most about this season is:

1. The stretch between Fallen Idols and The Real Ghostbusters. With the exception of one episode, all were either humor episodes or soft. And none of them were solidly produced episodes. Heck even for those who loved Changing Channels (and there are many), I can't get past that I never felt (except at the end) that this was the characters of Sam & Dean. I always felt like it was Jared and Jensen doing Improv.

Compare that to say Ghostfacers (another show with a ton of positive reviews), I like that one a ton more because through the whole episode I always felt like it was Sam and Dean. And as for the rest they were already drawn larger then life so I could accept them being drawn broadly.

2. The have as each season goes really tried to push the character arcs of Sam and Dean through each episode (And I like that, season 2 and 4 did it really well), but here they have had several episodes that haven't been bad, but I wish could be just a bit better (and storyline could have been).

As for me if I watch a 22 episode show and only 7 or 8 episode are average then I am still getting a good show. In fact for myself rarely do I see any show get down as low as 3 or four average or worse shows a season (exceptionally rare), maybe 1 a season, sometimes 2. Most for me are 50% of a season being average or worse.

For myself when SN came on, it didn't hold me (I think it was Wendigo), but I happen to be channel surfing and Home came on, it was enough to give me reason to come back. And when Faith aired, I knew the show could be a good show and that was what got me to keep with it. And since I think each season has produced stronger episodes. So I while I don't like those average episodes, I understand that the majority of them are better then average.

 

[startrekwatcher]

For myself the primary draw to the show is character. Something I thought was weakest in season one.

I'll freely admit the characters aren't as deep as they are now in season one but what can I say I liked them and I liked them doing their thing in the episodes.

And really the show is very serialized, and has been really since the start of season three.

It is serialized to some degree but what I meant was where the show really dedicated every episode to the core material that spans the series and advances each week--you know where very clear story threads form the season and that is all the season focuses on. SN usually uses a standalone story that is independent from the myth whose sole function is to make a Big Moment of realization on the characters in the final act but most of everything that leads up to it isn't that interesting in its own right.

And I for one can't say I would just want heavy mytharc episodes. As several of them over the years have been really poor.

Well I know the writers couldn't promise to churn out great episodes or good episodes all the time--that's just how it works but it has been my experience in recent years that when shows center their storytelling on core material it tends to focus their writing producing higher quality product. I think the fact that they can't just run to the old standbye stories that episodic shows have done forever and just plug in the characters forces them to be more creative and fresh.

But first what is a myth arc episode? Is "Children are our future"? In my mind that really is stand alone as it has very little to do the growing battle between Angel & Demon (though it is connected).

Really I don't think I have a hard set rule. The stories could advance the previous week. They do that to some degree now but it is more of the arc tenuously linking the standalone stories together rather than actually having the larger story be front and center each week and the episodes being all over it. So something akin to a traditional serialized primetime drama/soap in that the previous week story is continuation of the one before it and the one now is a continuation of last week with the plot continuously developing and advancing.

I personally consider "Children" to be a myth episode--although I can understand why you wouldn't--because the writers are basically using it as a backstory for a character that will feed into the larger story or at least that was my feeling at the time. Now if we never hear from him again then I'll have to call it a standalone. So in that regard "Children" for me is different from an episode that simply uses an unrelated tale to lead to a realization or discovery like "Ghostbusters" or "Changing Channels".

You state that you think the show would work better being serialized (well I think its highly serialized, though not completely),

I would say it semi-serialized. When I think of a highly serialized tv show I think of LOST or Heroes season one, Prison Break off the top of my head. It is all mythology all the time with everything serving the Big Picture.

I think one of the reasons for the stand alone episodes to be less enjoyable is that they are having to devote so much time on them for elements that are part of the myth arc, then to truly focus on the primary plot of the episode.

I don't think I necessarily see it that way. A lot of times the primary plot eats up most of the hour with the myth maybe winding up in the epilogue. No, I think the standalones are problematic because the plots aren't all that inspired or offers up a surprise. Also a lot of the creatures are lame. Also a lot of time they are predictable cramming in the obligatory S/D in danger coupled with action. They are just poor rehashes of much better episodes from other shows.

And let me just say that I'm not a episodic hater--some of my favorite tv shows did nothing but standalone stories--they just need to be really good.

And while I agree that many episodes are average, I have found that is true of most of the seasons. I guess that is where we differ.

I too think many episodes every season are average and that is why SN is a show I still tune into but one that isn't in my top tier--several factors: I'd like a bit more consistency with good episodes rather having such uneven seasons(2,3,5), season 3 Dean reeeeeeally turned me off and when you have only two characters that isn't a good thing(I really can't stand the ass Dean is sometimes even if it might be appropriate for the character).

And maybe I've just become a bit more jaded than when I use to watch stuff.