Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussion

[Vendikarr]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Thoughts about Lucifer. In the Supernatural world, is he considered a demon, or is he an angel, even if a fallen one.

This show has established rules on human possession, and i'd hate to see them broken. Demons can inhabit anyone, unless they have a ward or charm prohibiting it, like the tattoos Sam and Dean have. We haven't seen any demon who's an exception to those tattoos, so let's say that if Lucifer is a demon now, that he cannot take Sam.

Angel possession seems to center around finding a human vessel that can hold them. They devoted an episode to showing us the process Castiel went to in order to find a human host, and that being a vessel follows bloodlines. If Lucifer is still considered an angel, I don't believe he can take Sam either.

Early in the season Castiel thought he could talk to Dean with his natural voice, but could not, showing Dean is not part of a vessel bloodline. One could take that to mean that Sam isn't either.

Looking at the rules they have set down, I don't see Sam becoming Lucifer's host. The two boys, with an on-the-run Castiel will be tracking down who Lucifer inhabits.

If I were betting, I would put Lucifer in Anne's body. Where else could you put Lucifer but in the body of a fallen angel?

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Or Bobby....or possibly even Chuck...imagine the hijinks on that episode!

 

[BenRoethig]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I'm very surprised Anna didn't show up.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Wow! That was really, really confusing. I'm going to have to watch it again to get everything straight if I ever get to stop working overtime. Talk about a torturous cliffhanger. Sheesh, Kripke, I want to murder you for that but I know I'll be back. I suspect there are plenty more character moments for Sam to come, mswood. They'll just happen next season.

Kripke, you bastard. Thank God Ruby is dead. That skank has had it coming for awhile. When Sam finally listened to his message and it had Dean's voice on it calling him a monster, I wanted her deader than dead--or was that douchebag Zachariah as was postulated upthread? Pretty intricate plan with the angels and all. Loved Zachariah as the ultimate baddie. I knew he was a scumbag. He was too smarmy by half from the beginning. I could murder EW for spoiling the Lilith bit. I didn't go looking for that spoiler at all.

Nice moment with Bobby telling Dean he was a better man than his father ever was. Very nice indeed, but there's more to come with those character moments, too.....next season. It was an action packed episode, which I like, but it felt oddly truncated. Not bad at all, but not as great as it could have been. I got the idea that Kripke had planned to jampack it thinking season 4 was the last, then had to hold back. Lucifer rising certainly is a hook for next season, no?

Major points if Sam allowed Ruby to murder the nurse. I'll be impressed if they let that stand. They've set up so many nice things--Dean and Sam will spend the season drifting back together now that they have a shared bond of guilt (Dean broke the first seal and Sam the last). Also, they set up Castiel being a more permanent presence brilliantly. He's going to be on the angel's shit list but good now. Bobby and Dean have more to talk about with the whole John business. Who knows what revenge the other angels might seek, and yes....there is that nasty little Lucifer problem.

Overall I found last season's finale more emotionally satisfying, but this one brought more action and a more delicious cliffhanger.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Read some commentary on the finale. Miss innocent possessed nursy nurse is--in fact--confirmed dead. Cindy McLellan, nurse with a husband at home, is dead and Sam allowed Ruby to slit her throat.

I like it. That takes some balls. Oh, did I mention that Cindy McLellan was the substitute recapper for Supernatuaral at TWOP the first half of this season? She gave every episode she reviewed an "A" and they still offed her. I love it.

So far, all reviews but one have been positive. That lady Maureen whatshername at the Chicago Tribune is hooked and gushing about the show. You gotta like that. She liked the bit about Sam never having needed the blood to kill Lilith. Like Ruby said, he had it in him all along, he never needed the "feather" (the blood). All the blood was was a means of control by Ruby. The blood gave him a psychological excuse, too. It's the blood that makes me do it.

EDIT--It all ties up well, I must admit. Lilith's offer to stand down in "Monster at the End of the Book" was pretense. She wanted to die. All a ploy by Lilith and Ruby. Azazel searching for the right child from the very beginning, marking 6 month olds who'd been born with psychic powers....all to lead Lucifer's army (or set him loose). SPN does tie up loose ends well. Also, the convent at the beginning where the nun massacre took place? It's a real convent in Maryland where a priest slaughtered 8 little girls. Yowza.

Oh and I was wrong. The nurse's name was "McKellan," but they had wanted to use the recapper's name. Demian the present recapper said they couldn't use the actual name for legal reasons. Darn. By the way, Demian loved it. I can never figure that guy out.

 

[DarKush]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

A strong end to a solid season. Can't wait until the fall.

 

[Servo]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Ok.. that was a pretty lame episode.... VERY disappointing

How exactly was that lame or disappointing, in any way, shape, or form?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Bless his heart, I suspect I know why Othello didn't enjoy it. I love you, guy, to each his own. All opinions welcome here. My threads don't have to be a love fest, but I suspect that maybe there wasn't enough comeuppance of a certain someone for you?

Smallville's finale, my GOD was that ever bad, lame, and disappointing. And I don't even like Smallville. Ouch.

 

[Servo]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Gotta say, loved it when Bobby tore into Dean. Fantastic scene.

"Princess"

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Dean needed to try again with Sam. Bobby provided the tough love necessary. You'll notice that he mixed approval with his tough lesson. Dean is a better man than John was. Jim Beaver and Jensen Ackles mesh so well on screen. Then again, Ackles meshes well with pretty much every screen partner he has. Methinks Bobby might have a lesson or two for Sam next season.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I doubt Sam is Lucifer's vessel, simply because of the scenes with Azazel. Lucy (you know that's what they're going to end up calling him, might as well get used to it now!) wanted a very specific child and tasked Azazel to bring said child to him.

At first I suspected that Ruby wasn't Ruby anymore, but that Azazel had disposed of her and stolen her skinride for the sole purpose of bringing Sam to Lucy. But her ranting about how she was more loyal than all the other demons, Azazel included, kind of nipped that in the bud. Plus I wanted her dead, so that's a plus.

I think Lucy's skinride is going to end up being someone completely unexpected. Likely a child so as to make Sam and Dean's job that much more difficult. It'll just be interesting to see who that child is. (Maybe one of Dean's almost-definitely-existing bastard children?)

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Bless his heart, I suspect I know why Othello didn't enjoy it. I love you, guy, to each his own. All opinions welcome here. My threads don't have to be a love fest, but I suspect that maybe there wasn't enough comeuppance of a certain someone for you?

Smallville's finale, my GOD was that ever bad, lame, and disappointing. And I don't even like Smallville. Ouch.

To my mind they COMPLETELY wimped out with the brothers. I find it nauseatingly disgusting that it's gonna get wrapped up so sweetly and all their issues get swept aside like nothing ever happened. I mean, I'm sorry, but I was promised a REAL fracture with them and we get THIS piece of crap? Barely lasted any time at all. What a joke. We may get some awkwardness and a few yelling fights and maybe a punch or two but that's LAME. We see that crap all the time. I wanted ALL OUT WAR between the two. A REAL fracture that would keep them at odds all of next season and not get wrapped up until the very last few episodes.

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Gotta say, loved it when Bobby tore into Dean. Fantastic scene.

"Princess"

Yeah.. that was a great scene.. I prefer Dean getting his verbal/physical ass whupping from Sam but Bobby will do in a pinch.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

To my mind they COMPLETELY wimped out with the brothers. I find it nauseatingly disgusting that it's gonna get wrapped up so sweetly and all their issues get swept aside like nothing ever happened.

Othello, I don't think their issues are going to get wiped away just like that and wrapped up sweetly. There's trust needing to be rebuilt here. Things are not gonna get swept aside like nothing happened. Trust me on that.

Like I said, nitpicks and all it was eons better than the Smallville finale. Talk about a WIMP. OUT. All the genre sites are crucifying Smallville's finale. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Supernatural's is faring much better.

One major question, why was Lilith part of the plan with Ruby. Was her desire to deal with Sam a last minute change for her, with her mortality looming?

Lilith was playing Sam in "The Monster at the End of This Book," mswood. She was willing to die for Lucifer. She never wanted to deal. It was all smoke and mirrors to build up Lilith as more of an enemy to Sam. The whole mythology, with a few nitpicks, actually squares up pretty well IMO.

 

[Snick27]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Really good final. But im worried about next season, feels like its going to be a dud.


Question though!

Zachariah says:

This isnt the First planetary enima we delivered!

Wonder if he means the flood or something else?

And if im correct and Lillith was the first demon and im betting this had to happen while satan was free, so what time period did satan get chained up?

And what episode did they say Lilith was the first demon cause i cant seem to find it.

Another Question, is John in heaven, is there a heaven and you think they are separted from that angels since it seems most of the Angels are pricks?

And where does the Angels come from as they havent seen or met god so that kind of rules him out. So any chance they come from the heaven side and just get mind swiped, as humans are to be demons so woudlnt humans are to be Angels too?

 

[Thrall]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Question though!

Zachariah says:

This isnt the First planetary enima we delivered!

Wonder if he means the flood or something else?

Possibly. But they've also hinted that there are other worlds(planets?) in Gods domain that they watch over.

And if im correct and Lillith was the first demon and im betting this had to happen while satan was free, so what time period did satan get chained up?

Garden of Eden time. About the same time Adam was created. Yes, THE Adam. Lilith was the first wife of Adam. But she didn't want to be a second to him so she left and became a Night Demon of sorts. This is ancient Jewish folk lore btw, not Supernatural. Supernatural just explained how she became a demon and just assumed everyone knew who Lilith was to begin with.

And what episode did they say Lilith was the first demon cause i cant seem to find it.

The one before this one.

Another Question, is John in heaven, is there a heaven and you think they are separted from that angels since it seems most of the Angels are pricks?

I doubt they'll go into that. But "yes" and "yes" would be my guess.

And where does the Angels come from as they havent seen or met god so that kind of rules him out. So any chance they come from the heaven side and just get mind swiped, as humans are to be demons so woudlnt humans are to be Angels too?

Lucifer has met God, more then likely. He was an Archangel after all.

My guess is no, as the Angel episode from season 2 they said humans cannot be angels. However this was said by a priest who had really no confirmed way of knowing one way or another.

 

[AJBryant]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Major annoyance:

In the fine tradition of "if only characters talked to each other... but the writers don't want that to happen" --

Okay, so Dean was locked out. Why couldn't he *yell* "Don't kill Lilith, she's the final seal!"?

You can argue "Sam would probably ignore that" all you want, but it's academic, as Dean DID NOT DO WHAT ANY NORMAL THINKING PERSON WOULD HAVE DONE.

Dammit, writers and their railroad track plots.



Tony

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

To my mind they COMPLETELY wimped out with the brothers. I find it nauseatingly disgusting that it's gonna get wrapped up so sweetly and all their issues get swept aside like nothing ever happened.

Othello, I don't think their issues are going to get wiped away just like that and wrapped up sweetly. There's trust needing to be rebuilt here. Things are not gonna get swept aside like nothing happened. Trust me on that.

Like I said, nitpicks and all it was eons better than the Smallville finale. Talk about a WIMP. OUT. All the genre sites are crucifying Smallville's finale. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Supernatural's is faring much better.

One major question, why was Lilith part of the plan with Ruby. Was her desire to deal with Sam a last minute change for her, with her mortality looming?

Lilith was playing Sam in "The Monster at the End of This Book," mswood. She was willing to die for Lucifer. She never wanted to deal. It was all smoke and mirrors to build up Lilith as more of an enemy to Sam. The whole mythology, with a few nitpicks, actually squares up pretty well IMO.

Sorry, yeah there will be trust issues and such but come on.... we were promised, to my mind, so much more. The brothers BARELY were at odds at all. A few arguments and a fistfight. Standard brother fallout stuff between any brothers that would happen over a woman they both liked. I wanted REAL CONFRONTATION with an all out battle that had them both LEGITIMATELY trying to kill one another. A TRUE schism that would place them 100% square against each other and doing everything in their power to take the other down even if it meant that they had to kill the other. Now THAT would have been daring and lived up to what they promised. This is lukewarm pap that really disappoints me.

BTW- I LOVE Smallville but yeah.. that was by far the weakest finale of Smallville ever.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Actually in interviews they really only stated that they guys would be building in conflict that ends in them at odds with each other (both in opinion and in a fight), and that the fall out would play over a few of the episodes early in season 5.

I have states several times (even going as far back as 2nd season Born Under a Bad Sign) that expecting the Sam and Dean to be long term nemesis to each other was not something that the writers would be able to do. I even speculated that (if they have Sam truly go darkside and be the big bad for a season) the conflict would only be a few episodes.

As to the conflict between the guys (ie the fight) it wasn't standard for them. This is the first time (without being under supernatural influence) that Sam has ever struck Dean. Let alone be strangling him. And Dean caged him up, and was considering letting him die over Bobby's idea of giving him some demon blood. For Dean, do you have any real idea how huge that is. He went to Hell, literally to bring that boy back to life, even knowing that Sam had some malefic destiny. That he knowingly consorted with the things he hates the most to do it. To know think yeah, maybe its better he actually dies.

I don't think they ever put out any vibes that this (at this stage) was leading to an all out to the death type of conflict. It was always put more in the we disagree on how to we stop this looming battle, and if I have to break off ties with you, chain you up, beat teh living shit out of you to get some sense in your head then thats what I will do.

Even the fans who have speculated that Sam would be the big bad (or will be) typically use the fact that he will be the vessel of Lucifer, not just the character of Sam.

And with the show (though I was disappointed with the final (for poor casting, and some off screen scenes) I do trust that the character points of this conflict will be addressed, after all that is what has always been the strength of the show.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Major annoyance:

In the fine tradition of "if only characters talked to each other... but the writers don't want that to happen" --

Okay, so Dean was locked out. Why couldn't he *yell* "Don't kill Lilith, she's the final seal!"?

You can argue "Sam would probably ignore that" all you want, but it's academic, as Dean DID NOT DO WHAT ANY NORMAL THINKING PERSON WOULD HAVE DONE.

Dammit, writers and their railroad track plots.



Tony

Actually Dean might have said that, we don't know as we only hear Dean's voice for a small period of that time.

Hell even Ruby standing right next to him screaming is drowned out by the power in him.

And actually in primal situations people need not to be rational or over explain. They stick to what they normally can get a reaction to. For Dean that yelling Sam and Sammy.

One only needs to listen to 911 calls to see how irrationally people actually are during an emergency or crisis.