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Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussion

Dorian Thompson

Admiral
Admiral
Tonight's the night, kids. The season finale to season four of Supernatural and it looks to live up to its hype.

As usual, the promo from Canada's Space channel is ten times better than the pitiful CW promo.
SPACE PROMO

And, of course, my own computer is on the fritz, so I won't be able to join in the after episode discussion until tomorrow in the cyber cafe at work. :scream: I am so tired of having an old computer and not being able to afford a new own, but that's life I guess. I like the looks of that promo. So--does Lucifer rise or not? Does Sam kill Lilith or not? Only time will tell.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Dorian,

I'm getting ready to rid myself of my old PC. I think it needs a new motherboard, and if you're interested in it let me know.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I'll let you know. I have some other MAJOR costs coming up that unfortunately must come first. sigh. That's life.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Supernatural finale without Dorian!?!?!? What the...
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

why dont somebody tell them that they are they last seal...
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Nice sixk and twisted beginning...
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Ok.. that was a pretty lame episode.... VERY disappointing
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I called it! I called it even before this episode aired.
I was right about the destiny the Angels had in mind for Dean to be the killing of Lucifer.
I was right about Lilith being the final seal.
And I was definitely right about Ruby manipulating Sam this whole time so he can be the one to free Lucifer.
I thought Ruby was going to be around past this episode but her getting killed is a major plus.
And when next season opens, I bet I'm going to be right about Lucifer taking over Sam's body which is what Zach and the other Angels were hoping would happen because once he is in a physical body, Lucifer would be both powerful and vulnerable. And it was their plan to make Dean kill Sam with Lucifer inside of him.
This is the best season finale I've watched this year. Even better than the Lost season finale.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

I was oddly enough rather apathetic to this week's episode.

The episode seemed so much filler, we knew Lilith was the finale seal (thanks EW for that one about what two months ago!), and we have been thinking since Ruby real first appearance that she is playing him. So no surprise there at all.

We also ffelt since the much stronger torture/ Uriel is killed episode that God wasn't in the house (so no surprise) we felt angel douche bag was on the side of pushing for the battle (like Uriel) since his what 2nd appearance and how he handled Chuck. So no surprise there.

I also felt that Dean would come around on Sam (after all teh hints that he truly realize that his father is not who he should be idolizing, and his father wouldn't take him back, so obviously Dean would. THe only real question on that was who would call first (who called first in Scarecrow, anyone remember?).

Really the only shock of teh episode was that Sam deliberately killed a host for blood instead of any other motivation (though again that was hinted at in the Castiel episode) when he stabbed the demon instead of trying to just send it to hell.

ANd what do they do, the biggest character moment for Sam, it happens off screen. AARRGGHH

Unlike say Heroes battle with Sylar a couple weeks ago, this one can't even be blamed on budgets. Since the effects needed are fairly low cost.

It was nice to see YED again, but the actor simply was not up to either of three primary actors who have played him previously as both Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Mitch Pillegi, and Frederic Lane all outclassed this actor. In fact those three other actors always felt like the same character. This guy, even when his eyes turned yellow I thought this can't be Azazel, he isn't the same character.

Lord, its like Ruby 2.0....

Oh and thank god she is dead.

The things I did appreciate, how they tied teh threads on the demon story.

One major question, why was Lilith part of the plan with Ruby. Was her desire to deal with Sam a last minute change for her, with her mortality looming?

Liliths actions don't make sense. Either she's trying to free Lucifer or she's not, which is it. Her actions and reactions to Sam (from Jus in Bello, No Rest for the Wicked, to her attempt to deal with Sam) only make sense if she was trying to stay alive.

Yet here she is in on the plan, and freed Ruby to warp Sam for this purpose.

With this being in my opinion the best overall season of Supernatural it is also my opinion that it is the worst season ender they have done. I don't think off the first viewing I can give it anything over a C. One of the worst episodes of the season (I really only think the 2nd part of the I know what you did last summer was worse).
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

My assumption, Ruby was in on the plan first, before Lillith. The Devil's Gate allowed Lillith to escape. Before this point, Azazel hadn't been able to contact her, because she was so deep in the pit. All Lillith knows at this point is that Azazel had been training some human to lead a demon army and she takes umbridge with this. Lillith and Ruby finally meet face to face, because Ruby wants to keep Sam alive, and Ruby tells Lillith the truth, or some part of it. Lillith doesn't believe Ruby and grabs her body, sending her to the tender care of Alistair. Then, Ruby attempt to kill Sam, who proves immune to her powers. This is sufficient proof that Sam is who Ruby claims him to be, and she gets out of there rather than killing him the old fashioned way.
Lillith then permits Ruby to escape to finish the plan. At this point, Lillith doesn't know that she is the final seal, and wouldn't have gone along with Ruby if she did. When she finds out, she attempts to make the deal with Sam, but that falls through and she eventually comes to accept her fate, possibly with encouragement from Ruby.

Do we know that Sam killed the nurse? It seems like it would be pretty easy for him to pick up a 16 gauge hypodermic needle and have her draw her own blood for him. As a nurse, she'd know how. People donate blood all the time, so there would be no problem with her drawing a pint.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

The episode seemed so much filler, we knew Lilith was the finale seal (thanks EW for that one about what two months ago!), and we have been thinking since Ruby real first appearance that she is playing him. So no surprise there at all.

There's a reason I avoid such things.

Do we know that Sam killed the nurse? It seems like it would be pretty easy for him to pick up a 16 gauge hypodermic needle and have her draw her own blood for him. As a nurse, she'd know how. People donate blood all the time, so there would be no problem with her drawing a pint.

Possible but seems unlikely in his state of mind and I'm not sure if that works for the mystical aspects or not.

Not so sure how they're going to resolve this one.

Did anyone else really really hate Ruby when Sam listened to his voicemail?

On a tangential note, anyone know if the musical flashbacks are included on the DVD's? This is one of the few shows where I'd actually care to see such things on a repeat viewing.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

what the heck?!!? fade to white on this finale too!!??! i feel like some of these finales are sharing some minor elements from each other. Lost killing off one of their characters, yet still keeping the same actor around just like with Heroes, and tonight's supernatural was very a very minor detail considering the plot was completely different, but they also had a bright light that would close the scene and go to credits. But all in all, the episode had its moments, i liked the line about the holodeck. Although, I liked last year's finale better, but this wasn't too bad either. Sets up a whole lot for next season. Yeah, the actor playing Azazel this time around, didn't play him like we would have normally been accustomed to seeing him. I didn't even know it was him until the yellow eyes showed up. But then i thought it was a different YED, since the effect looked different. Next year is the last season right? Should be epic! At least we only have to wait until sept/oct for this show to come back.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Actually when Sam was listening to his voicemail, I don't think that was Ruby. I think that was Douche Angel. After all he is the one who ordered Sam freed, and he talks to Dean about how he's just going to give Sam a little push. Changing that message was the push.

As for spoilers, this was the first season I ever really stayed away from them. They one in Entertainment weekly was reported all over the place and thus I saw the clue elsewhere, and just reading it, took about 3 seconds to figure it out.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

My assumption, Ruby was in on the plan first, before Lillith. The Devil's Gate allowed Lillith to escape. Before this point, Azazel hadn't been able to contact her, because she was so deep in the pit. All Lillith knows at this point is that Azazel had been training some human to lead a demon army and she takes umbridge with this. Lillith and Ruby finally meet face to face, because Ruby wants to keep Sam alive, and Ruby tells Lillith the truth, or some part of it. Lillith doesn't believe Ruby and grabs her body, sending her to the tender care of Alistair. Then, Ruby attempt to kill Sam, who proves immune to her powers. This is sufficient proof that Sam is who Ruby claims him to be, and she gets out of there rather than killing him the old fashioned way.
Lillith then permits Ruby to escape to finish the plan. At this point, Lillith doesn't know that she is the final seal, and wouldn't have gone along with Ruby if she did. When she finds out, she attempts to make the deal with Sam, but that falls through and she eventually comes to accept her fate, possibly with encouragement from Ruby.

The only hole in that logic (one I ran into myself) is that if she sees Sam as a possible adversary (before she learns the truth) she would have encouraged the CRD (in early season three) to try and deal for Sam's life. After all based on what we know Dean has no value to her, and is no threat to her. They think its John who's going to break the first seal.

This all happens before Jus in Bello (where she sees Sam has an enemy to be killed).
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

As for Lucifer, I am of two minds if they intend to use Sam as a primary host form.

One it creates a tremendous storytelling problem for the show. It really forces them into telling two separate stories with these two characters (and they have never even done that for one episode). You couldn't have the characters interacting in more then a handful of episodes. And I don't think they are brace enough to try that with the fans.

Now that leaves to options. One having lucifer being a submerged part of Sam, that he is keeping down and under control. Which yeah, I am Sam I am holding back Lucifer. Sorry don't by that.

Or that leaves us building to a period where Lucifer is trying to find a proper host form which eventually leads to Sam (say the last 3 or 4 episodes of season 5). Now that I can see them trying.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Actually we don't know if season 5 is going to be the last. Most shows that use arcs to tell stories generally give a five year plan upfront to the networks. 5 years being the ideal number to get a syndication deal (where most shows end up making a good chunk of their profit). Kripke has already had to change around his story both for strike reasons and just because he wasn't happy with certain how certain elements of his arc were playing. The actors have long said they would like to end with season 5 (and I am sure alot of that has to do with being away from home and the really long hours these two work, unlike an ensemble show like lost where you might only put in a few days a week). But lately they have mentioned that they aren't total opposed to a season 6. And since Supernatural has grown all season long (with the possible exception of this episode, wont know until tomorrow afternoon) it has become a fairly successful show for the CW (which is funny since its been so close to the chopping block). So the CW might not want to let it go.

I have no real problem with the show going longer (if they can still tell good stories), and certainly unless the arc ends with both characters dying in their battle between heaven and hell, they could certainly explore the aftermath of that confrontation, and how it has changed the world and more importantly themselves.

The real problem is that often shows are given very little notice if they are or aren't being picked up. That could put the writers in a very difficult spot. Either end teh angel/demon arc, or leave it open and end up getting cancelled without being able to successfully give the show closure.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

anyone who has watched neon genesis evangelion knows what happens with lilith...killing her brings about the end of world...
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

My assumption, Ruby was in on the plan first, before Lillith. The Devil's Gate allowed Lillith to escape. Before this point, Azazel hadn't been able to contact her, because she was so deep in the pit. All Lillith knows at this point is that Azazel had been training some human to lead a demon army and she takes umbridge with this. Lillith and Ruby finally meet face to face, because Ruby wants to keep Sam alive, and Ruby tells Lillith the truth, or some part of it. Lillith doesn't believe Ruby and grabs her body, sending her to the tender care of Alistair. Then, Ruby attempt to kill Sam, who proves immune to her powers. This is sufficient proof that Sam is who Ruby claims him to be, and she gets out of there rather than killing him the old fashioned way.
Lillith then permits Ruby to escape to finish the plan. At this point, Lillith doesn't know that she is the final seal, and wouldn't have gone along with Ruby if she did. When she finds out, she attempts to make the deal with Sam, but that falls through and she eventually comes to accept her fate, possibly with encouragement from Ruby.

The only hole in that logic (one I ran into myself) is that if she sees Sam as a possible adversary (before she learns the truth) she would have encouraged the CRD (in early season three) to try and deal for Sam's life. After all based on what we know Dean has no value to her, and is no threat to her. They think its John who's going to break the first seal.

This all happens before Jus in Bello (where she sees Sam has an enemy to be killed).

I don't think that Lillith saw Sam as any sort of threat at that point, not as much as Dean, who was a real thorn in their side. Azazel made the deal with John, not Lillith. I don't think that Lillith even knew about the first seal at that point. The Crossroads demon didn't have any way to communicate with Lillith at the time she made the deal with Dean, but did so on her own initiative, because Dean was a great hunter, one who already had a reputation amongst the demons. He'd killed demons at this point, being the only mortal who had in a very long time. Getting his life and his soul have the CRD cred with other demons. It also would have also put a monkey wrench in Azazel's plans, with two surviving pretenders to the throne, which would have given her cred with Lillith.


Letting Dean out of the deal would have been an unmitigated political disaster for Lilith, and at this point she thinks that Sam is just an upstart kid with a little demon-granted precognition. She doesn't know about his passive immunity to demon powers, so killing him should be trivial for someone of her abilities, especially when he is deprived of the Colt and his brother.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

i was actually hoping they were gonna go in a different direction for this arc, with Sam turning evil, fully. The seal is broken but it wasn't gonna be Lilith, and Sam is at his side, if not his host and that the angels were actually the good guys and not actually hoping for the apocalypse to happen, but that the apocalypse was inevitable. Dean, Castiel, Anna, Zachiariah on the front lines leading a whole slew of Archangels and angels against Sam. This direction works too. God will probably come back into the building and lay the smackdown in the end.
 
Re: Supernatural 4x22 "Lucifer Rising" season finale spoiler discussio

Okay, so I'm going to try to put everything in order.

1 - Azazel finds the Devil's gate that will allow Lucifer to escape. Via the nun ritual, Lucifer was able to tell him that Lilith was key to freeing him.

2 - Azazel begins his plan to find (or create) a "special child." He chooses specific families and forces the babies to ingest his own blood, giving them their special abilities. He also kills their mothers, so that they will live the hard life that will mould them to bis purposes.

3 - He does this because he knows that when he does free Lucifer, he will need a human host, just like any other demon, to be able to do much of anything. But being the biggest baddest demon there ever was, the host will need to be superpowerful to handle him, hence the demon-strengthening of his "special ones."

4 - After avoiding John Winchester and his like for years, Azazel finally brings his special ones together to fight it out, so that he can choose the one strongest to be Lucifer's host.

5 - At the same time, Azazel plots to open another Devil's Gate, one that will allow Lilith to escape, which is necessary as a larger part of the plan to release Lucifer. He unfortunately dies in the attempt, but Lilith is released.

6 - Lilith quickly establishes herself as the new head of the plan, and takes advantage of the fact that Dean already sold his soul to save Sam. She knows that Dean is righteous, and that if he can be turned by her old friend Alistair, he can be the first Seal.

7 - To that end, Lilith does everything she can make sure Dean goes to hell, and block Sam from doing anything to save him. This includes deals with both Ruby and Bela.

8 - Dean goes to hell, the Seals begin to fall, and Lilith sends Ruby to begin gradually seducing Sam into using his demon powers, with the intention of continuing his strengthening to be the host for Lucifer. Lilith is willing to sacrifice many other demons - including eventually herself - to this end.

9 - The angels are aware of this plan. They fall into four camps, exemplified by:
... i. Uriel - he wants Lucifer released, and is willing to kill other angels who are attempting to stop that, because he believes God was wrong to banish Lucifer in the first place.
... ii. Zachariah - he has the same plan as Uriel, but with different motives: he wants to release Lucifer because he believes that's the only way to finally get rid of him once and for all. He's willing to allow the deaths of countless humans to this end (which is different from Lilith how?).
... iii. Castiel - he believes he's helping to stop the demons, and that saving Dean from Hell is what's required to do that. He eventually begins to sympathise with humans, and that his commanders do not have their best interests at heart.
... iv. Anna - she already believed the angels were corrupt and was thrown out for trying to convince others of that.

10 - Ruby and Lilith are successful in executing Azazel's plan - Lilith sacrifices herself and Lucifer rises. So now all four demons - Azazel, Lilith, Alistair, Ruby - are dead, but their mission was a success - a host for Lucifer.

===

Of course there are problems with this, especially in points 6 and 7. Lilith definitely seems to be trying to kill Sam in season 3, not just delay him - hence the suggestion that Ruby was actually in on the plan before Lilith was. And Dean sold his soul to same Sam before Lilith was released, which Azazel couldn't have been sure he would do (unless... was he?), so do Azazel's and Lilith's plan actually fit together as nicely as they seem to? And Lilith appeared to make the deal with Bela while she was still in Hell, unless that wasn't actually Lilith herself but just another Crossroads Demon.

Edited to add: a few other posts added while I was typing have helped to clarify things further. Thanks.
 
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