Tonight was episode #20. The finale, "Lucifer Rising" is #22.
Supernatural 4x20 "The Rapture" spoiler discussion thread
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
Okay, here's the promo for the next 2 weeks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-STRx2P9k2Q
I think Zachariah's as dirty as they come. And it looks like Sam turns on Dean to defend Ruby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-STRx2P9k2Q
I think Zachariah's as dirty as they come. And it looks like Sam turns on Dean to defend Ruby.
What I did love was right after Sam feed, and turned towards Dean he extends his hand (at a threat Dean doesn't see) and Dean is moves as if Sam is about to attack him. That Dean thinks Sam is there shows how much Sam has changed in Deans mind.
I liked it.
And I can't wait for next week.
I liked it.
And I can't wait for next week.
i didn't really care for the actress who played Jimmy's wife....she was a bit stiff and emotionless
Damn, Othello, you're bloodthirsty. I liked that moment when Dean flinched as Sam turned around with the hand of ipecac raised. I liked that in a big way. Shows a broken trust between the brothers without having to exposition it into the dialogue. Again, I have to wonder exactly what was on that note Castiel handed to Dean in the dream. Did Dean read it? Was it about Jimmy or Sam? Dean was playing his cards pretty close to his vest.
You know, things might have ended up very different with poor unfortunate Jimmy and his family had Sam not left his post for a swig of blood. Castiel might have found another willing vessel and Jimmy could have hidden with his family. Or maybe not. Point is, Sam's addiction has already caused major hurt and damage. I'm still impressed with his different Misha Collins made his 2 characters.
I liked that moment when Dean flinched as Sam turned around with the hand of ipecac raised. I liked that in a big way. Shows a broken trust between the brothers without having to exposition it into the dialogue. Again, I have to wonder exactly what was on that note Castiel handed to Dean in the dream. Did Dean read it? Was it about Jimmy or Sam? Dean was playing his cards pretty close to his vest. You know, things might have ended up very different with poor unfortunate Jimmy and his family had Sam not left his post for a swig of blood. Castiel might have found another willing vessel and Jimmy could have hidden with his family. Or maybe not. Point is, Sam's addiction has already caused major hurt and damage. I'm still impressed with his different Misha Collins made his 2 characters.
^That was something I thought, too. Not that I thought Misha Collins was a bad actor, but the difference was night and day. I loved the ending, but I was expecting it because I was spoiled already. It was good to see some background on Jimmy and how he became Castiel's host.
I can't wait to see where this is going in the next 2 episodes.
I can't wait to see where this is going in the next 2 episodes.
Checkmate
Commodore
Dean obviously read the note, else he wouldn't know where to find Jimmy. The problem seems to be that's all the note had on it.
What I don't get about the dream sequence is why Castiel was afraid to talk there but didn't have much problem doing it in the flesh. If you could create wards there, why not just throw one around Dean while he's sleeping or something?
I also agree that Zach is a very bad, bad man. He's probably one of the main ringleaders of the new rebelling angels, and I feel bad for what he probably did to poor Castiel. I just hope Cas' recent conversion back to the side of Heaven is a ruse on his part.
For parts I like: Dean being skittish when Sam attacked Jimmy's wife, Castiel in the daughter (even though I saw it coming a mile away), and Misha's brilliant acting. When he was begging Castiel to take the burden of being a vessel in order to protect his daughter, my heart was breaking. It's both amazing and wonderfully terrifying just how far a good parent will go to protect their children.
What I don't get about the dream sequence is why Castiel was afraid to talk there but didn't have much problem doing it in the flesh. If you could create wards there, why not just throw one around Dean while he's sleeping or something?
I also agree that Zach is a very bad, bad man. He's probably one of the main ringleaders of the new rebelling angels, and I feel bad for what he probably did to poor Castiel. I just hope Cas' recent conversion back to the side of Heaven is a ruse on his part.
For parts I like: Dean being skittish when Sam attacked Jimmy's wife, Castiel in the daughter (even though I saw it coming a mile away), and Misha's brilliant acting. When he was begging Castiel to take the burden of being a vessel in order to protect his daughter, my heart was breaking. It's both amazing and wonderfully terrifying just how far a good parent will go to protect their children.
I hope so, too. I'm pretty sure it has to be. You don't just undo feelings. You can change behavior by putting someone under duress, but changing feelings is a different matter. Cas was starting to really like Dean and obviously Zachariah was not happy Cas taught Dean how to summon an archangel. Zach's dirty. He's gotta be. He appeared at the end of "The Monster at the End of This Book." I was thinking he was the monster at the end.
Jimmy broke my heart. Poor, poor Jimmy. He does love his child.
Under similar circumstances you usually do one of two things, you turn into an emotional wreck or you shut them down to protect yourself. She had spent the last year believing her husband was crazy and walked out on them and then found out reality was much, much worse.
Individual clip for 4x21, "When the Levee Breaks."
Holy shit.
Sam's got to be hallucinating. Ruby's got him addicted but good. Dean really needs to kill her like yesterday. Of course that doesn't erase Sam's responsibility. Yowza. This show really does go there, doesn't it?
When the Levee Breaks
Holy shit.
Sam's got to be hallucinating. Ruby's got him addicted but good. Dean really needs to kill her like yesterday. Of course that doesn't erase Sam's responsibility. Yowza. This show really does go there, doesn't it?When the Levee Breaks
Damn, Othello, you're bloodthirsty.
I'm like that.
Ask the folks over in the Smallville threads about me and they would rail about how I was always cheering for Lex over Clark and bash Chole and cheer the "hated" Lana. 
I'm a very nice guy but in movies and tv I find bad guys FAR more interesting. Good guys are GENERALLY, far too simple. A well written bad guy or dark character is far more compelling to analyze. Not to mention I ABSOLUTELY HATE hypocrisy and things liek that when it coems from do gooder preachy types. Drives me nuts to no end.
Perfect example. I'm a huge pro wrestling fan. Growing up the huge debate was always who is better Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair. Hogan was the "all american" hero and a babyface while Flair was the admitted "dirtiest player in the game" and a heel. Hogan was more popularbut I liked Falir FAR better as even though he broke the rules, betrayed people, had his buddies attack people in 3 an 4 on one beatdowns, etc.. he made no bones about it. If you were stupid enough to trust him you got what you deserved. LOL he made no secret what type of person he was. An arrogant jerk who thought he was the best and would take anyshortcut to hold onto or get the world title. Hogan, on the other hand, claimed to be a great guy but had this insanely huge ego, consatntly broke the rules, got protected by refs making decisions that favored him, etc and got cheered for it an sayign what a role model he was. Drove me nuts cause to me the only difference was Falir amitted what he was.
I don't expect hero perfection but I can't stand "heroes" that are, to my mind, severely flawed.
So, we're a Sam fan? 
Damn, Othello, you're bloodthirsty.
You know, things might have ended up very different with poor unfortunate Jimmy and his family had Sam not left his post for a swig of blood. Castiel might have found another willing vessel and Jimmy could have hidden with his family. Or maybe not. Point is, Sam's addiction has already caused major hurt and damage. I'm still impressed with his different Misha Collins made his 2 characters.
Well the other end of that spectrum is without Sam's addiction the pretty much all the characters are dead already...
I mean I assume he is already addicted long before this episode, and clearly if teh events of this season happened without Sam having his powers then they are all dead.
Dean and Sam would have both died at Alastairs hand in Death takes a holiday.
And certainly Dean and Castiel's host would have been killed in On the pin.
So really the main ast is already toast without Sam.
That is assuming (and I think it's a safe bet) that he is addicted at this stage.
Individual clip for 4x21, "When the Levee Breaks."
Holy shit.
When the Levee Breaks
I loves those clips.
As to Sam, who can really blame him.
Lets look at this logically.
He has never (even under extreme pressure, even ones deliberately set to make him go evil) has given into acts.
He has since he was 6 months old already had demon blood in his system, and not just junior league blood, but from one of the major agents of hell.
By the time he has lost Dean he knows that while he is immune to Lilith's energy powers he is still extremely vulnerable to her forces and he knows that she directly sees him as her primary threat (at least at this stage).
All he has is his knife. He's dead. Logically there is now way he can survive.
And of course he is in a mindset where he is just fine with that.
Ruby comes along, and gives him the means to not only help others but to gain vengeance on Lilith. All he has to do is amp his abilities (I assume that a process that YED didn't need to do since basically his own essence while he was alive was powerful enough to not only impower Sam but multiple beings at the same time.
And I would say at the time the season started I don't think an addiction had set in (reason later).
But once the season starts, suddenly the situation he is in has gotten vastly more complex.
Before he was only focused on killing lilith (and saving those he could, in that order of importance). But suddenly he has his brother back. Now he has to worry about Dean (Again), and face up to the harsh reality that he didn't save him. Clearly if he would have done what he has done in the last few months when Dean was still in his deal he probably would have been strong enough to stop any one (or thing) from taking Dean. That has to kill him with guilt (above and beyond that he couldn't save him in the first place, but that he probably could have but didn't). Then we have the news that not only does he have that to deal with, but that the literally end of humanity is now at hand (when it was before just a couple of hundred demons lose, of which just Sam and Dean took out a good sized chunk).
We then see Dean's reaction to what Sam has done (to a degree) and Sam gives it up, with apparently no side effects, at this point.
Sam then sees the increasing threat with Samhein, not only from demons but from Angels as well. And in a last resorts uses his abilities. And again at this point we see no signs of addiction (he has stopped feeding, and this last for quite a bit of time).
And even by his next encounter with a being that he has to utterly HATE beyond measure, he doesn't go back.
And even with him admitting the thing he wants now more then anything (Killing Lilith) he doesn't go back.
Its only after a rather normal case that highlights that Sam and Dean are in fact pretty much destined to die young. This is something he can't face. And I don't think its his mortality that pushes him to this choice, but Dean's. Again the idea of Dean dying is so much stronger then him personally losing his brother.
And when he makes this choice to go back to Ruby, he hasn't had any real side effects (except for the ones he had going back to season one, headaches). And he clearly sees that his abilities are absolutely needed, which he shortly gets proof of. I mean he has had demon blood in him his whole life and yet has done great good his whole life.
So by the time he really feels the addiction it is too late for him to stop.
So I don't see how Sam could rationally not do what he has done.
I like that it isn't easy. It isn't so cut and dried. Dean good. Sam bad. Wouldn't any of us have gotten addicted were we in Sam's position? Sam went through the ringer (if the 100 Tuesdays remark is accurate and the 6 trickster months counted) for a year with losing Dean every single day and being alone before Dean actually died. Watching your beloved brother die every single day and being absolutely powerless to stop it truly would be hell. It's certainly psychological trauma times ten. Sam was alone. He felt tremendous guilt. He already feels responsible for Jessica's death. His family was torn apart because he was born and then Dean was finally, irrevocably gone. The one place where Sam went truly wrong was isolating himself from Bobby after Dean's death. That was the critical mistake. He isolated himself, just like his father before him. Sam and Dean could have grown up before had John not isolated them from everyone. There was Bobby, Caleb, Pastor Jim, Ellen and Bill Harvelle. There were others.
That gray area will be what eventually helps Dean forgive him if Dean can see just what kind of horrific pain Sam was in. Sam suffered, too. He suffered greatly. Dean suffered such horrors in hell and was so riddled with his own guilt for torturing and enjoying it that he was in no condition to nurture Sam when he returned from hell. Dean had nothing left and Sam was still adrift.
Neither of them really listened to the other. They reacted with anger and fear. Dean was so scared for what Sam would become that he didn't listen at all. He just said, "Don't!" He loved his brother as much as he ever did, but he was too damaged to react with anything but anger. That's what I frigging love about this conflict. I absolutely adore it because it's so real and so understandable. It's totally plausible that this rift could develop and widen to this point between two basically good human beings. Pain and grief and guilt build walls. Psychological trauma takes from you and gives nothing back except to make you vulnerable and impair your judgment.
If only Nathan and Peter on Heroes could have gotten something this good for even five minutes the show might not be in such terrible shape.
That gray area will be what eventually helps Dean forgive him if Dean can see just what kind of horrific pain Sam was in. Sam suffered, too. He suffered greatly. Dean suffered such horrors in hell and was so riddled with his own guilt for torturing and enjoying it that he was in no condition to nurture Sam when he returned from hell. Dean had nothing left and Sam was still adrift.
Neither of them really listened to the other. They reacted with anger and fear. Dean was so scared for what Sam would become that he didn't listen at all. He just said, "Don't!" He loved his brother as much as he ever did, but he was too damaged to react with anything but anger. That's what I frigging love about this conflict. I absolutely adore it because it's so real and so understandable. It's totally plausible that this rift could develop and widen to this point between two basically good human beings. Pain and grief and guilt build walls. Psychological trauma takes from you and gives nothing back except to make you vulnerable and impair your judgment.
If only Nathan and Peter on Heroes could have gotten something this good for even five minutes the show might not be in such terrible shape.
Honestly I don't know how much Bobby would have been able to help.
Remember this he was willing to kill Bobby to save Dean (even if it wasn't real). THis is after that experience, where he appears even worse. I don't think keeping in contact with Bobby would have been able to give him an emotional anchor.
With Dean's Death in his mind he truly has lost everything important to him.
He lost his mother, that helped destroy a real childhood. He lost his one "real" normal relationship with Jess (and add insult to injury finds out she was killed just to get him back in the road). He lost his old life (since they believe Sam is actually dead). He has lost his father. He has lost any sense of being able to be normal with the knowledge that his demonic nature revealed. Then (at this time) believing he his also responsible for the deaths of every member to his family past (and even there associates). Then to lose his brother, not only loses him his primary emotional relationship in his life, but he also falls him The one time (that as he would see it) that Dean truly needs him he utterly fails.
I don't think just keeping in contact with Bobby would have helped him at all. Hell I don't think camping out in his "safe" room would have been enough.
Remember this he was willing to kill Bobby to save Dean (even if it wasn't real). THis is after that experience, where he appears even worse. I don't think keeping in contact with Bobby would have been able to give him an emotional anchor.
With Dean's Death in his mind he truly has lost everything important to him.
He lost his mother, that helped destroy a real childhood. He lost his one "real" normal relationship with Jess (and add insult to injury finds out she was killed just to get him back in the road). He lost his old life (since they believe Sam is actually dead). He has lost his father. He has lost any sense of being able to be normal with the knowledge that his demonic nature revealed. Then (at this time) believing he his also responsible for the deaths of every member to his family past (and even there associates). Then to lose his brother, not only loses him his primary emotional relationship in his life, but he also falls him The one time (that as he would see it) that Dean truly needs him he utterly fails.
I don't think just keeping in contact with Bobby would have helped him at all. Hell I don't think camping out in his "safe" room would have been enough.
Oh I agree that Dean's death was the greatest blow to Sam after a lifetime of trauma. I'm not attempting to make Sam the sole bad guy in the drama. I just wonder if Ruby could have gotten her hooks into Sam like she did if he'd allowed Bobby to comfort him and stayed with Bobby to grieve. Bobby seems much closer to Dean than to Sam that way, but ultimately Dean didn't listen to Bobby either and made the deal for Sam. It might not have made a bit of difference. Bobby would have counseled Sam to mourn and then to go on with his life to honor his brother while Ruby dangled a means of revenge under Sam's nose and sweetened the deal with sex (they obviously slept together more than once) and the idea that he could save more possession victims if he learned to exorcise with his mind. Mixing truth with lies--just like a demon. Nothing is perfect in this life. Saving people individually was a moral act, but the more blood he consumed, the farther away from being able to determine right and wrong Sam got. He liked the feeling of strength and control.
It's what I like, a little complexity of motive. You have to pay attention to get it. Some fans complain that they didn't show why Sam did what he did. My response to that is, "You're kidding, right?" TPTB have shown everything to do with Sam. What they didn't do was spell it out in paint by numbers dialogue. You had to have been paying attention all along to get it. I'm so thankful that the characterization in this series has been so fantastic.
It's what I like, a little complexity of motive. You have to pay attention to get it. Some fans complain that they didn't show why Sam did what he did. My response to that is, "You're kidding, right?" TPTB have shown everything to do with Sam. What they didn't do was spell it out in paint by numbers dialogue. You had to have been paying attention all along to get it. I'm so thankful that the characterization in this series has been so fantastic.
You guys have WAY TOO MUCH faith in Dean than I EVER will. Dean doesn't even come CLOSE to being the decent person Sam is. Without Sam Dean would be no different than that hunter who got turned into a vampire IMHO> It's Sam who has the conscience, not Dean. Without Sam Dean would be a mindless obsessed killing machine.
Whoa! I can't agree with that. Dean's got some major flaws, but I can't include mindless obsessed killing machine among them. 