Supernatural 4x1 "Lazarus Rising" SPOILERS after ep discussion

[Skywalker]

^ Dean's lack of faith in the divine half of the supernatural has been sort of a running theme throughout the show. The most glaring example I can recall is the second season episode "Houses of the Holy," where people claim that an angel has been telling them to murder sinners. Sam was willing to believe, but Dean was skeptical that it actually was an angel.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Dean's bitter because of everything he's lost in life, starting with his mother. There's a bit of Job's story to Dean. It's easy to have faith when your life is easy. When your life is shit, that's when it gets tough (which is probably why he's this angel's chosen extension). Dean's still at his best when things are the worst. That's the sign of a truly good person.

 

[3D Master]

Damn good episode.

Don't know what to make of Castiel though.

The thing is, if he's genuinely a good guy, the bad guys need to step up. Seriously, this dude is so powerful there'd be no drama if he gets to mix it up, unless a demon or god on the bad side of things comes out of the woodwork that is equally powerful.

The damn thing is, though, I can't see angels as good, not one bit, that's because I can't see god as good either. A bastard that hardens the heart of a pharao, even though he's already succeeded at what he wants, just so he can slaughter some more people, including innocent babies and children, is in my book the worst kind of evil. And the ones that revolted against it, the good guys.

 

[dragunzng]

Nice episode, such a great show, really wish more people watched it.

Kind of missed "Carry on Wayward son" tho!

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I imagine we'll hear it again around season's end. It does seem to be the unofficial theme song.

 

[FreezeC77]

Damn good episode.

Don't know what to make of Castiel though.

The thing is, if he's genuinely a good guy, the bad guys need to step up. Seriously, this dude is so powerful there'd be no drama if he gets to mix it up, unless a demon or god on the bad side of things comes out of the woodwork that is equally powerful.

The damn thing is, though, I can't see angels as good, not one bit, that's because I can't see god as good either. A bastard that hardens the heart of a pharao, even though he's already succeeded at what he wants, just so he can slaughter some more people, including innocent babies and children, is in my book the worst kind of evil. And the ones that revolted against it, the good guys.

There is definite elements to that those who revolted were tired of God's inaction in a lot of fictional stories. I'm not sure it fits into Supernatural just because we see how truly evil most of the actions of demons are in Supernatural so it's not like they pissed at God not doing anything and then wanted to be more active. They appear to just want to rule humanity.

The point you make about Castiel is totally true about his power level. He's got every demon afraid of him and not even able to look at him. They've said Lilith, who was their most powerful enemy to this point isn't even near his league in power. That makes for some pretty boring fights. I wonder if we'll find out Castiel is "cast-out" and is trying to make a play for Lucifer's territory or perhaps just stay on Earth and rule it there.

In either case I could see Lucifer getting involved either he would be directly challenged or he would not want to let this upstart gain control of humans.

 

[mswood]

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucifer is the new big bad (or the idea building to him). After all we never knew what Lilith was building to (or for that matter YED). Its possible one was hoping to to release him.

ANd it certainly seemed (in the one episode where they do talk about Lucifer) that there were two sides YED and Lilith. Where they working on the same goal, working just for Chaos. We don't know.

Though in fairness, all we saw Castiel do was blind his victims. It's unclear if the one host body of the demon in the diner was killed by Castiel or was dead already and the demon simply departed.

I wouldn't be surprised if Castiel is limited in action (ie that he might advise and act as guide but my not actually fight).

 

[Dorian Thompson]

The possibilities are limitless now in terms of potential motives, players, and what Castiel is willing or able (or not able) to do. He's such an intriguing addition. Much more so than the network dictated Bela. Isn't it ironic? Ostroff gives us Bela. Kripke gives us Castiel.

 

[Pensive]

All I know is they better do something awesome with him because Lilith? GINORMOUS BLUE BALLS.

 

[John Picard]

I have to wonder if Castiel is playing Dean though. Lightning, dark shadows, burning the eyes out of people who are possessed rather than banishing the demons etc. seem pretty dark for an angel.

Angels weren't always depicted as the bright-and-fluffy peaceniks they're typically imagined as these days. Everything about Castiel so far seems like some real Old Testament stuff, which is awesome. It's a shame we'll probably never see Pam again (pun intended), she was cool.

Um, from what I remember of the OT, angels were of a dark color and much larger than men, but their appearance did not cause men's eyes to burn. They only destroyed people who were evil. I want examples from the OT that you are referencing, because I remember the story about Lot, and the angels were talking with him face-to-face.

 

[Skywalker]

I want examples from the OT that you are referencing

Too bad.

 

[John Picard]

I want examples from the OT that you are referencing

Too bad.

Then it appears your statements are incorrect. The fluffy type angel image was born of the Renaissance and over time the image of angels having large wings behind them evolved into being. I stand by what I said earlier in reference to the two angels speaking to Lot face-to-face. I understand that angels could change their form, but not as you're proclaiming.

 

[Skywalker]

Okay.

 

[Pensive]

When Abraham meets three angels, they look like men. Other instances of people meeting angels are similar, but many times their garments shine. Idk where this "dark color" stuff is coming from. The nephilim (hybrids) were giants, but not regular angels.

 

[3D Master]

Damn good episode.

Don't know what to make of Castiel though.

The thing is, if he's genuinely a good guy, the bad guys need to step up. Seriously, this dude is so powerful there'd be no drama if he gets to mix it up, unless a demon or god on the bad side of things comes out of the woodwork that is equally powerful.

The damn thing is, though, I can't see angels as good, not one bit, that's because I can't see god as good either. A bastard that hardens the heart of a pharao, even though he's already succeeded at what he wants, just so he can slaughter some more people, including innocent babies and children, is in my book the worst kind of evil. And the ones that revolted against it, the good guys.

There is definite elements to that those who revolted were tired of God's inaction in a lot of fictional stories. I'm not sure it fits into Supernatural just because we see how truly evil most of the actions of demons are in Supernatural so it's not like they pissed at God not doing anything and then wanted to be more active. They appear to just want to rule humanity.

I'm not talking about inaction, I'm talking about god doing the opposite of inaction and slaughtering countless innocent people just for his own amusement. And that's really just the beginning.

That has nothing to do with whatever the human souls turned demons want, god simply is what he is. Just because those demons want to kill, murder, and dominate, does not mean that god and his angels want anything else.

Also, if god decides who goes to hell (apart from those who sold their soul), one can ask, who were sent there, and what was so evil that they did that they were sent there. If it's the classical view, of anyone who doesn't believe in god, regardless of whether they even ever heard of him, or whether they were old enough to make a decision one way or the other; we once again have a god that is evil, completely regardless of what the motivations are now of those sent there.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Kripke must be relishing all this discussion going on about God and his relationship to the show, is God good or evil, and all that. He definitely hit a home run with this development. It keeps your interest.

 

[Thrall]

Damn good episode.

Don't know what to make of Castiel though.

The thing is, if he's genuinely a good guy, the bad guys need to step up. Seriously, this dude is so powerful there'd be no drama if he gets to mix it up, unless a demon or god on the bad side of things comes out of the woodwork that is equally powerful.

The damn thing is, though, I can't see angels as good, not one bit, that's because I can't see god as good either. A bastard that hardens the heart of a pharao, even though he's already succeeded at what he wants, just so he can slaughter some more people, including innocent babies and children, is in my book the worst kind of evil. And the ones that revolted against it, the good guys.

This interpretation seems to be of the one found in Islam. At least so far. That God and his angels are so high up the food chain that's it's almost impossible for them to get involved with the affairs of men without "lowering/corrupting" themselves. So involvement in the affairs of man is barely felt. Which is why they send prophets as a go between.

And according to Christian tradition, the reason for the War in Heaven was that Lucifer refused to serve a lesser creature - i.e. Mankind. His hatred of mankind is why he takes pleasure in torturing their souls forever.

 

[3D Master]

Damn good episode.

Don't know what to make of Castiel though.

The thing is, if he's genuinely a good guy, the bad guys need to step up. Seriously, this dude is so powerful there'd be no drama if he gets to mix it up, unless a demon or god on the bad side of things comes out of the woodwork that is equally powerful.

The damn thing is, though, I can't see angels as good, not one bit, that's because I can't see god as good either. A bastard that hardens the heart of a pharao, even though he's already succeeded at what he wants, just so he can slaughter some more people, including innocent babies and children, is in my book the worst kind of evil. And the ones that revolted against it, the good guys.

This interpretation seems to be of the one found in Islam. At least so far. That God and his angels are so high up the food chain that's it's almost impossible for them to get involved with the affairs of men without "lowering/corrupting" themselves. So involvement in the affairs of man is barely felt. Which is why they send prophets as a go between.

?? Huh? How is slaughtering tens of thousands, millions even maybe, of innocent children through plagues and death itself, "barely felt", and "almost impossible"?

And according to Christian tradition, the reason for the War in Heaven was that Lucifer refused to serve a lesser creature - i.e. Mankind. His hatred of mankind is why he takes pleasure in torturing their souls forever.

Christian tradition: aka propaganda. One can never trust the writings of the seeming victors. Especially if you understand what the Christian and Jewish traditions are actually based upon. You find it's rather the reverse. You can even see this in what (especially the Islamic version) god demands of humans.

 

[John Picard]

When Abraham meets three angels, they look like men. Other instances of people meeting angels are similar, but many times their garments shine. Idk where this "dark color" stuff is coming from. The nephilim (hybrids) were giants, but not regular angels.

Exactly, so I don't understand where people are getting this, "Oh, it's like the OT where men couldn't look at angels". IIRC, the angels looked similar to men, however they were noted to be larger (taller, body build?) and that they appearance was such that they stood out.

 

[3D Master]

When Abraham meets three angels, they look like men. Other instances of people meeting angels are similar, but many times their garments shine. Idk where this "dark color" stuff is coming from. The nephilim (hybrids) were giants, but not regular angels.

Exactly, so I don't understand where people are getting this, "Oh, it's like the OT where men couldn't look at angels". IIRC, the angels looked similar to men, however they were noted to be larger (taller, body build?) and that they appearance was such that they stood out.

That means those angels were not in their native form, much like Castiel in his meat suit. Angels weren't the sweet nice guys they are depicted as post Christianity.