Superheroes Becoming Too Overpowered

[JarodRussell]

Superman's weakness has always been his plain stupidity.

 

[Mr Silver]

Superman's weakness has always been his plain stupidity.

I agree, you would think a man of his abilities and knowledge would have a little more common sense. But then again, thats maybe what makes his character work so well. He has been raised by Humans and therefore inherits our latent weaknesses, such as emotions.

His love for Lois has constantly caused him trouble, yet he doesn't learn from it. She could probably wear a Kryptonite Wedding Ring and he'd still stay with her.

 

[Chaos Descending]

The power increase thing has also happened in Doctor Who, with the TARDIS now able to tow planets across light-years and travel trillions of years forward in time when previously it had had an imposed safe limit of perhaps ten million years from the present time.

It was only in "Frontios," in the series' 21st season, that it was suggested that travel beyond 10,000,000 AD exceeded the TARDIS's "boundary limits." But that was after several trips to much more than 10 million years in the past: 65 million in "Earthshock," 140 million in "Time-Flight," 400 million in "City of Death," billions of years to the formation of the galaxy in "The Edge of Destruction," and all the way back to "Event One" (the Big Bang) in "Castrovalva." So this wasn't a long-standing limit that was recently abandoned, it was a limit that was never mentioned until the series was more than half its current age, and then never mentioned again thereafter. Not power creep so much as a singular continuity glitch.

Its pilot's limit of twelve regenerations may have been increased or remioved, too.

The regeneration limit wasn't introduced until "The Deadly Assassin" in the 14th season, though, a bit over halfway through the series' original run. So it's a case of a limit being added rather than removed. (Just half a season earlier, "The Brain of Morbius" implied that the Doctor had had at least eight incarnations prior to the four we'd seen up to that point. I don't think it was until "The Five Doctors" that William Hartnell's Doctor was explicitly established as "the original, you might say.")

Indeed, although Mawdryn Undead re-iterated that the Doctor has 12 total regenerations, and established that he'd only used four, by implication William Hartnell had to be the original Doctor.

 

[coolghoul]

He's supposed to be a mutant with vaguely science based powers, not a magical being.

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

You know, this would've been a great idea, if it'd been applied to Wildcat instead, another fighter who gets out of death all the time.

If for no other reason than it would be pretty great to see Ted Grant punch Neil Gaiman's Death in the face.

Actually I remember this being commented on recently in one of the JLA titles (I forget if it's All-Star or GenLost or whatever). The collection I was reading was the one with the evil Nazi characters "winning" in an alternate future. I think it was JSA: Axis of Evil where one of the characters is taken over by Mordru. The other JSA members don't know it and they jokingly ask him how many lives Ted has got left. And the answer from Mordru is that there are always 9 lives left. I thought that was an interesting way of commenting on WildCat's ability to survive all and be a Bat-Lite character (i.e. no super powers, just a good fighter) and still able to be respected and so on as a founder member for the JSA.

Btw, I think he should now be WildCat Senior since his son (I remember reading a Vandal Savage story about it) is also WildCat (but literally in this case - the son is meta and becomes a weird panther-human hybrid).

 

[Thestral]

They both go by Wildcat. And really in the DC Universe (and the JSA especially) that's not that odd, considering Flash and Green Lantern and to some extent Batman, Starman, and Captain Marvel.

 

[kythe]

I agree that Superman is presented as too powerful. It reminds me of children playing superheroes and each one loudly declaring "Well I can do X!" "Well I can do X times a million!" "But I can do X times infinity!" and so forth.

I agree, but I don't see this as evidence that Superman was poorly written. I don't think a lot of "pop psychology" factored in to the making of Superman. Superman was one of the first comic superheroes ever, a prototype for comics to come.

Other comic series' learned from mistakes made in Superman, improved on powers vs weaknesses, and often had better character development and storylines. Superman changed over time as well, but is best known as the one who paved the way for the popularity of comics in general.

 

[Davros]

I don't think it was until "The Five Doctors" that William Hartnell's Doctor was explicitly established as "the original, you might say.")

They never had to as there was never any indication of previous incarnations. People sometimes cite Brain of Morbius, but those other faces shown were obviously Morbius's previous incarnations indicating the Doctor had turned the tables in their psychic combat.

 

[Christopher]

They never had to as there was never any indication of previous incarnations. People sometimes cite Brain of Morbius, but those other faces shown were obviously Morbius's previous incarnations indicating the Doctor had turned the tables in their psychic combat.

Well, it's always best to go directly to the source, so here's the scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyVYks3DXE&feature=related

The "combat" starts around 7:45, and I don't think your interpretation is "obvious" at all from what's there. When the unidentified faces are shown, they're accompanied by Morbius crowing in triumph, "Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius! Back, back to your beginnings!" It doesn't seem like Morbius is losing at that point. Indeed, moments later, the machine blows out, Morbius staggers away, and the Doctor collapses into a coma, needing the Elixir of Life to prevent his death. The Doctor lost rather definitively. (And it's interesting that he doesn't save the day at all; the Sisterhood hounds Morbius to his doom and saves the Doctor's life.) So no, I really don't think the intent of the people who wrote and shot the episode was that they were Morbius's earlier incarnations. In context, it seems clear that they meant them to be the Doctor's. But then later writers and producers contradicted that, and fans came up with the rationalization that they were Morbius's faces.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The problem is poor writing, not superheroes being too powerful.

All-Star Superman, by Grant Morrison, has an incredibly powerful Superman, moreso than even in the current ongoing comics.

It's literally the absolute best Superman story I've read in the last 20 years, and probably one of the greatest ever outside the origin and a select few over the decades.

Then again not everyone can spit out wild ideas at the speed Morrison can. There's a pretty severe lack of quality control when it comes to writing iconic franchise characters.

 

[Davros]

They never had to as there was never any indication of previous incarnations. People sometimes cite Brain of Morbius, but those other faces shown were obviously Morbius's previous incarnations indicating the Doctor had turned the tables in their psychic combat.

Well, it's always best to go directly to the source, so here's the scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyVYks3DXE&feature=related

The "combat" starts around 7:45, and I don't think your interpretation is "obvious" at all from what's there. When the unidentified faces are shown, they're accompanied by Morbius crowing in triumph, "Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius! Back, back to your beginnings!" It doesn't seem like Morbius is losing at that point. Indeed, moments later, the machine blows out, Morbius staggers away, and the Doctor collapses into a coma, needing the Elixir of Life to prevent his death. The Doctor lost rather definitively. (And it's interesting that he doesn't save the day at all; the Sisterhood hounds Morbius to his doom and saves the Doctor's life.) So no, I really don't think the intent of the people who wrote and shot the episode was that they were Morbius's earlier incarnations. In context, it seems clear that they meant them to be the Doctor's. But then later writers and producers contradicted that, and fans came up with the rationalization that they were Morbius's faces.

Nothing later about it. It was obviously Morbius's incarnations the first time I ever saw the episode. How anybody thinks those were the Doctor is beyond me.

 

[Unicron]

She has found ways to work spells without speaking, such as writing them out. And I think she's occasionally able to do magic without words at all; it just takes a lot more concentration. The words are a focus, an aid to channeling her power. Or so I understand it.

So, it would be conceivable then that Zatanna might be able to change reality on the level of M-Day, with the right magic. I'm just curious mainly, but it sometimes seems to me like any smart villain would just find a way to brainwash her and have her change things to their liking. Would be a rather boring comic though.

 

[Christopher]

All-Star Superman, by Grant Morrison, has an incredibly powerful Superman, moreso than even in the current ongoing comics.

And its strength is that it makes that incredible power into a story point, and in its own way a crisis, rather than simply an easy way to get the character out of any crisis, as is too often the case with overpowered heroes.

Nothing later about it. It was obviously Morbius's incarnations the first time I ever saw the episode. How anybody thinks those were the Doctor is beyond me.

Well, that just goes to show how differently people can think from one another, because how you could think they weren't meant to be the Doctor is beyond me. That's the danger of the word "obviously" -- what's obvious to one person may not be obvious at all to another. But since the Doctor isn't technically a superhero and we're off-topic, let's just chalk it up to diversity.

She has found ways to work spells without speaking, such as writing them out. And I think she's occasionally able to do magic without words at all; it just takes a lot more concentration. The words are a focus, an aid to channeling her power. Or so I understand it.

So, it would be conceivable then that Zatanna might be able to change reality on the level of M-Day, with the right magic.

I don't see how that follows from anything I said. Just because she has multiple means of activating a spell, that doesn't mean she has unlimited power. Control and power are two separate issues.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

For me, personally, superheroes are only, truly, interesting when they embody some elements of human frailty/conflict/ability to overcome flaws. The further these characters get from human traits (the more inherent power to overcome conflicts that they acquire), the less I care.

 

[Myasishchev]

As far as Zatanna goes have we ever seen her do anything on a cosmic scale? Her sdrawkcab spell talk hasnt allowed her to reshape the planet or anything like the Scarlet Witch. I think her current book is showing her limitations quite nicely.

"Ecurb tegrof."

Zatanna can do relatively precise, if poorly sutured, mental surgery. That's extremely powerful, and if you can mindwipe, just saying "Ecrurb ied" and have it come true wouldn't be out of the question.

But cosmic stuff, i.e. fighting the Anti-Monitor or that kind of thing? I suppose it hasn't been seen, but one expects only through design. "Rettam-itna evaw pots!" Can she do that? If not, why not?

So, it would be conceivable then that Zatanna might be able to change reality on the level of M-Day, with the right magic.

"Ydobyreve tegrof." I don't see why that would be out of bounds and Identity Crisis wouldn't be, except by just setting an arbitrary limit on Zatanna's abilities. How many can she mindwipe at a time? Two? Three? A thousand? Meh.

Btw, I think he should now be WildCat Senior since his son (I remember reading a Vandal Savage story about it) is also WildCat (but literally in this case - the son is meta and becomes a weird panther-human hybrid).

Ugh, does every piece of Kingdom Come errata have to make its way into regular continuity? I haven't seen a one-off story mined for ideas like that since The Dark Knight Returns. The thing that gets me is, Kingdom Come is actually pretty bad.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^^If Geoff Johns has his way, then yes.

 

[Broccoli]

But since the Doctor isn't technically a superhero [...]

Tell that to Craig Ferguson.

 

[Thestral]

Ugh, does every piece of Kingdom Come errata have to make its way into regular continuity? I haven't seen a one-off story mined for ideas like that since The Dark Knight Returns. The thing that gets me is, Kingdom Come is actually pretty bad.

Well, it seems like most of the stuff that crossed over has been mostly cosmetic (Atom Smasher's look, the Red Robin identity, Alan Scott's Emerald Knight powerup) or was inspired by a character who played very little actual role in the story (Tom Bronson Wildcat, Lightning). The obvious exception of course is Magog and Kingdom Come Superman's visit.

 

[Mr Silver]

For me, personally, superheroes are only, truly, interesting when they embody some elements of human frailty/conflict/ability to overcome flaws. The further these characters get from human traits (the more inherent power to overcome conflicts that they acquire), the less I care.

Well the rule of Superman is that he cannot kill. In many ways this is an embodiment of Human Fraility. Most of us are reluctant to kill and would consider it a last resort, sure, we have Soldiers, but War and Conflict is often the result of a last resort. In Superman's case, its very easy for him to kill, he has abilities beyond Human's and several of his fellow DC heroes. Rather than using his powers to just end a conflict swiftly (kill or incapacitate for example) he uses his human traits as a means to solve problems, in conjunction with his abilities. The more often than not leads to further trouble, because the villains will take advantage of Superman's reluctance to harm them (Lex Luthor for example).

There are many examples within the Comic Book genre of these Superheroes. Look, even at how Batman was portrayed in the Nolan movies. He has a dark side to him, yet he sees having to kill as a loss-loss situation. Furthermore, Batman acts as a symbol to inspire Gotham, his vigilante and athletic abilites are secondary.