Superheroes Becoming Too Overpowered

[Skellington]

Of course, one could argue that Wolverines ability to produce claws was a secondary mutation (along with his Healing Factor).

Secondary mutation would fit the bill nicely for Wolverine; and it was shown that he had bone claws, with the adamantium ones basically being an otherwise hollow sheath around them. As for his regenerative ability, it's probably better described as a self-repair or morphic ability than as a biological healing factor, given that (for instance) the nervous system doesn't generally (if ever) exhibit signs of healing.

 

[FPAlpha]

It's all about the writer and how much leeway he's given by the editor thus the same hero can have varying levels of power during an exclusive run.
Sometimes it can get a bit out of hand so it's either swept under the rug or a reboot is in order.

This is as old as comics themselves.. you either accept it or you don't. In the latter case you are just inviting a splitting headache trying to cobble together all the instances and powerlevels.

 

[UssGlenn]

Its pilot's limit of twelve regenerations may have been increased or remioved, too.

The regeneration limit wasn't introduced until "The Deadly Assassin" in the 14th season, though, a bit over halfway through the series' original run. So it's a case of a limit being added rather than removed. (Just half a season earlier, "The Brain of Morbius" implied that the Doctor had had at least eight incarnations prior to the four we'd seen up to that point. I don't think it was until "The Five Doctors" that William Hartnell's Doctor was explicitly established as "the original, you might say.")

Additionally, Matt Smiths line about having 507 regenerations on the Sarah Jane Adventures was stated to be a joke by Russel T Davies, basically to get the kid to shut up and stop pestering him with questions. So until the series proper states otherwise he still has 12 regenerations.

 

[the G-man]

I wasn't aware of the "one drop of blood" thing, but something siomilar was done a few years ago when Wolvie was incinerated in a plane crash with pretty much nothing but his adamantium skeleton remaining. The healing ability was toned down afterwards, though; it was established then each time he died he had to win a fight in the afterlife or stay dead. That option was then removed, so apparently now he's on his last life.

He's supposed to be a mutant with vaguely science based powers, not a magical being.

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

That doesn't make it better. There's way too much "he died and got better" in comics as is.

 

[Snaploud]

He's supposed to be a mutant with vaguely science based powers, not a magical being.

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

That doesn't make it better. There's way too much "he died and got better" in comics as is.

I never said it was better...just that the storyline didn't require Wolverine to be a magical being.

 

[Mr Silver]

I was thinking about some of the other ways limits have been handled, particulary in the Marvel Universe. Magneto for example is a classic example. His abilities have shown progression, at the beginning he was able to use his Magnetism Mutation to block bullets, magnetise his suit to fly, create metal projectiles and broadcast a limited EM shield. Nowadays Magneto can do virtually anything with Metal, he can manipulate it on the Subatomic level, control the organic minerals in someones body, (this was shown on screen, where he extracted the metallic minerals from the guard and reorganised them into weapons and of course, a platform from which to escape) extract Admamantium safely from Wolverine's body and even enhance his own body to the level of someone like the Hulk.

This of course was a natural progression, similar to how a Craftsman learns to refine their Craft. Magneto learned how to enhance his abilities over time. But the most important thing is, Magneto still has weaknesses. He isn't Invulnerable and when weakened his abilities cease to be effective. Whats more, something as simple like a distraction would work against Magneto.

 

[Christopher]

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

That doesn't make it better. There's way too much "he died and got better" in comics as is.

Well, that was the whole idea. It was a retcon that was introduced specifically to get rid of Wolverine's tendency to come back from the dead. It was revealed that, all the previous times when Wolverine had come back from the dead, it hadn't just been his super-awesome healing factor, it had been the fact that he'd been basically outfighting Death itself and getting restored to life. And the same story that retroactively revealed this also established that Wolverine would never be able to fight this guy again, so that if he died again, it would be permanent. The purpose of this story point was to restore Wolverine's healing factor to a reasonably limited ability, something that would no longer serve as a "get out of death free" card the way previous writers had used it.

 

[JRoss]

I agree that Superman is presented as too powerful. It reminds me of children playing superheroes and each one loudly declaring "Well I can do X!" "Well I can do X times a million!" "But I can do X times infinity!" and so forth.

If you want to see great Superman, you owe it to yourself to find the old Fleischer cartoons, as CLB stated earlier. These are the most expensive cartoon shorts ever produced, and it shows. Great rotoscoping, fun music and a storyline that usually doesn't treat viewers like idiots. They aren't perfect, and have some very cringe-worthy moments, particularly in "Jungle Drums" and "The Japoteurs." A few of the shorts have noticeably worse animation but overall they are great viewing.

 

[the G-man]

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

That doesn't make it better. There's way too much "he died and got better" in comics as is.

Well, that was the whole idea. It was a retcon that was introduced specifically to get rid of Wolverine's tendency to come back from the dead. It was revealed that, all the previous times when Wolverine had come back from the dead, it hadn't just been his super-awesome healing factor, it had been the fact that he'd been basically outfighting Death itself and getting restored to life.

Yes. And that's basically "magic."

 

[Myasishchev]

I wasn't aware of the "one drop of blood" thing, but something siomilar was done a few years ago when Wolvie was incinerated in a plane crash with pretty much nothing but his adamantium skeleton remaining. The healing ability was toned down afterwards, though; it was established then each time he died he had to win a fight in the afterlife or stay dead. That option was then removed, so apparently now he's on his last life.

He's supposed to be a mutant with vaguely science based powers, not a magical being.

I vaguely remember that issue. It didn't require him to have magic powers. Apparently, everybody got the chance to fight death to be re-born, but Wolverine was just the only fighter powerful/skilled enough to take him down repeatedly.

You know, this would've been a great idea, if it'd been applied to Wildcat instead, another fighter who gets out of death all the time.

If for no other reason than it would be pretty great to see Ted Grant punch Neil Gaiman's Death in the face.

Anyway, far more annoying than Superman's power creep is Batman's intellect/wealth/skill/luck creep. An invulnerable Kryptonian? I buy that. The immortal guy who dresses up like a bat? Man, whatever.

Of course, no one in the DCU is a more of a broken character than Zatanna Zatara, because she's usually thrown in like she's a regular superhero, when the fact is the only entity that could plausibly defeat her is the Spectre (or, possibly, supersonic characters like the Flash).

I agree that Superman is presented as too powerful. It reminds me of children playing superheroes and each one loudly declaring "Well I can do X!" "Well I can do X times a million!" "But I can do X times infinity!" and so forth.

Yeah, I always played as Franklin Richards.

This of course was a natural progression, similar to how a Craftsman learns to refine their Craft. Magneto learned how to enhance his abilities over time. But the most important thing is, Magneto still has weaknesses. He isn't Invulnerable and when weakened his abilities cease to be effective. Whats more, something as simple like a distraction would work against Magneto.

Speaking of ultra-powerful mutants, poor Mags was always up against someone who is basically the most powerful major comic book character of all time: Charles Xavier. Good thing he had his magic, vaguely-defined anti-telepathy helmet! Or maybe that was the Juggernaut. I think it was both.

 

[Thestral]

Well, that was the whole idea. It was a retcon that was introduced specifically to get rid of Wolverine's tendency to come back from the dead. It was revealed that, all the previous times when Wolverine had come back from the dead, it hadn't just been his super-awesome healing factor, it had been the fact that he'd been basically outfighting Death itself and getting restored to life.

Yes. And that's basically "magic."

This is a world in which magic is commonlplace and Earth has a Sorcerer Supreme and several competing demonic lords. Ilyana Rasputin's and Wanda Maximoff's mutations are literally magical, so Wolverine outfighting Death is, while over the top, not out of the blue. And to some extent, Wolverine-exhaustion aside, awesome.

 

[mswood]

Well Mags helment wasn't originally resistant to telepathy (Did this develop after the film?). As characters like Jean and Xavier often used telepathy in their assaults on him.

And characters like Zatanna can't do everything. She can't just speak the words and it always happens, because their are plenty of times that hasn't been the case. Here the problem is they (besides briefly in the early eighties) haven't really set up what those limitations are.

My bigger issue is characters that don't have growth thats due to experience, but having exponential growth in abilities that make no rational sense versus the larger tapestry of their ability.

Things like Thor being able to deliver a blow that could destroy a large part of a galaxy. Thats just stupid on a level thats hard to comprehend.

Its Scarlet Witch a character that has had legitimate growth with experience and training who could effect things like a block of a city all of a sudden being able to reorder all of reality. Thats just pathetic writing.

Now something like Marvel Girl to Phoenix (Marvel Girl like Scarlet Witch and Invisible Girl also experience growth in ability over the years that was quite reasonable) merged with a cosmic being. So the writers clearly address her tremendous increase in ability (of course she stood had stayed dead after X-Men 137, but thats another issue of writers and editors utter contempt for writing good solid material).

And speaking of Marvel's stupidity what the hell is up with all the offspring and duplication of characters in the last decade. Seriously, it doesn't make sense even within the realm of a fictional creation. Its ludicrous, and DC also has done this, but I don't think they have been quite as bad recently at least.

I mean what is so hard for professional writers to actually try and maintain some reasonable consistency within their shared universe. Do editors not do anything anymore?

And yes the point that Bat-Man can defeat anyone with prep is just pathetic beyond my ability to express words.

 

[Christopher]

Yes. And that's basically "magic."

But on the part of the cosmic forces controlling death and resurrection in the Marvel Universe, not on Wolverine's part.

And the point is, you said there was too much "dying and getting better" in comics, and the whole reason this was done with Wolverine is because that writer agreed with you and wanted to strip Wolverine of the ability to recover from death. The way he went about it may have been rather fanciful, but it was a one-time thing, and the end result is a Wolverine whose healing factor is restored to its more limited levels from the '70s, before it was exaggerated to ridiculous extremes. So even if you don't agree with the means, at least the ends are in keeping with what you want.

Well Mags helment wasn't originally resistant to telepathy (Did this develop after the film?).

No, I'm pretty certain I was aware of that function of Magneto's helmet well before the movies were made. It makes sense, really, since it's the only way that Magneto could function as a villain without Xavier knowing his every move in advance.

Now something like Marvel Girl to Phoenix (Marvel Girl like Scarlet Witch and Invisible Girl also experience growth in ability over the years that was quite reasonable) merged with a cosmic being. So the writers clearly address her tremendous increase in ability (of course she stood had stayed dead after X-Men 137, but thats another issue of writers and editors utter contempt for writing good solid material).

Well, if she'd stayed dead, they never would've introduced the retcon that she'd merged with a cosmic being. The original explanation for the Phoenix was simply that Jean's powers were supercharged by the radiation she was exposed to on the shuttle flight, I believe. The bit about the Phoenix actually being a separate cosmic entity that had duplicated Jean was introduced years later when they decided to resurrect Jean and reveal that her real self had been in a cocoon beneath the river since the shuttle crash.

 

[Icemizer]

I was unaware of Wolverines ability to regenerate from a single drop of blood, thought that was only Lobo over in DC. For Wolverine I find that dumb for Lobo much less so.
Supermans power increase since the Byrne redo has bothered me no end. At that point the character was just about perfect. Powerful but not godlike. This had to be an easier character to write as well. Its hard to come up with reasons for a god to lose a fight and mostly the ones that do are pretty bad.
As far as Zatanna goes have we ever seen her do anything on a cosmic scale? Her sdrawkcab spell talk hasnt allowed her to reshape the planet or anything like the Scarlet Witch. I think her current book is showing her limitations quite nicely.

 

[Christopher]

I was unaware of Wolverines ability to regenerate from a single drop of blood, thought that was only Lobo over in DC.

As stated, that was not presented as an intrinsic ability of Wolverine's, but as the effect of an all-powerful, reality-bending magic crystal that Wolverine's blood came into contact with. That particular event tends to get blurred together with the choices of comics writers decades later to amplify Wolverine's healing ability to nearly as extreme a degree.

 

[Forbin]

The bit about the Phoenix actually being a separate cosmic entity that had duplicated Jean was introduced years later when they decided to resurrect Jean and reveal that her real self had been in a cocoon beneath the river since the shuttle crash.

And I'm STILL over that one, after all these years.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

I was unaware of Wolverines ability to regenerate from a single drop of blood, thought that was only Lobo over in DC.

As stated, that was not presented as an intrinsic ability of Wolverine's, but as the effect of an all-powerful, reality-bending magic crystal that Wolverine's blood came into contact with. That particular event tends to get blurred together with the choices of comics writers decades later to amplify Wolverine's healing ability to nearly as extreme a degree.

Yeah. That was pretty much a one time thing within the context of that story. However, it wasn't long after that when Hama was writing him, Wolverine went from a talking charred skeleton to a healthy muscleman in three panels. I almost expected his clothes to regenerate, too.

 

[Unicron]

Out of curiosity, what are some specific limits to Zatanna's magic? I know that she can't employ it when she can't actively speak, but I don't read enough comics to know how far her ability to alter things goes.

 

[Silvercrest]

She restored the entire downtown area of Metropolis following the "Fall of Metropolis" arc. No word on whether she also resurrected everyone who died, or if it just consisted of empty buildings.

 

[Christopher]

Out of curiosity, what are some specific limits to Zatanna's magic? I know that she can't employ it when she can't actively speak, but I don't read enough comics to know how far her ability to alter things goes.

She has found ways to work spells without speaking, such as writing them out. And I think she's occasionally able to do magic without words at all; it just takes a lot more concentration. The words are a focus, an aid to channeling her power. Or so I understand it.