Super!Archer!? Not really

[JiNX-01]

Posters here (and elsewhere) have complained about the writers' portrayal of Super!Archer! as the strongest, smartest, etc. at the expense of the other characters.

But I don't think that was entirely true.

A few cases in point:
Broken Bow: Archer is out like a light when T'Pol figures out a way to track Klang. The mission would have been over had she not done that. And she will come up with a plan to rescue Archer from the helix.
Breaking the Ice: Archer's pride gets in the way of rescuing Reed and Mayweather and it's T'Pol who persuades him to do right by his crew.
Shockwave II: The crew saves the ship. Daniels gets Archer back to his own time.
The Communicator: Trip and Travis figure out how to get the cloaking device to work and T'Pol leads the rescue party.
Extinction: Archer isn't immune to the effects of the virus... He has to be helped by T'Pol and rescued by Trip. Otherwise, he'd have been toast.
Similitude: Archer doesn't save Trip. Sim does.
Hatchery: T'Pol, Trip and Malcolm who put the mission back on track.
Cold Station 12: Archer puts his life on the line to save the station, and then has to be rescued (in what I consider one of the coolest resolutions to a cliffhanger ever!)
United: Hoshi and Travis come up with the solution to let Archer beat Shran without killing him.
Terra Prime: Trip saves Starfleet by re-aiming the weapon.

What do you think?

 

[Captain X]

If you really want, I could come up with at least twice as many examples of Super!Archer! in action, if not more, including some of the examples you've listed as being the opposite.

 

[JiNX-01]

I'm really not trying to pick a fight here. I just never saw Archer as "super" anything... So I looked at some of the episodes from various seasons and found instances where Archer isn't the hero. (BTW, I wasn't shooting for an all-encompassing list. )

My point is that other characters did in fact get the opportunity to shine as the ones who saved the the ship, or the crew or Archer himself.

 

[Captain X]

Yes, but very rarely, and even moreso after the first season.

 

[commodore64]

I thought he was pretty super and am okay with others saying he was. Heroes in stories typically do the impossible (hello - Luke Skywalker, Odysseus, Indiana Jones, Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, etc.). That's pretty much they're role - to get impossible quests and overcome them.

What I've never understood is why people were so upset with that centuries-old formula? This is the same formula we've used for parables, discussions of fables since man began to speak. I have theories, but I'll spare you.

I liked that - to Jinx' point - Archer had foibles and issues to overcome. I also liked - to Captain X's point - he overcame those obstacles to face new ones.

 

[Skywalker]

I would have preferred that they hadn't gone the Super!Archer! route, but I think it was intentional, and not just in a "let's make Bakula look good" sort of way. It seemed to me that they were trying to echo TOS in that aspect by making Archer a more hands-on captain who always pulled off the heroics, like Kirk always did.

 

[angie]

I agree there are more examples of Archer first starship captain who picked a super crew than Super!Archer. The captain is the focus so often it may seem like he or she is "super" and when viewers who don't like this character is probably seems even more. I am not a Picard fan so to me it always seems he is made too Super!Picard.

 

[Broccoli]

I would have preferred that they hadn't gone the Super!Archer! route, but I think it was intentional, and not just in a "let's make Bakula look good" sort of way. It seemed to me that they were trying to echo TOS in that aspect by making Archer a more hands-on captain who always pulled off the heroics, like Kirk always did.

Exactly...while I really didn't notice the Super!Archer until reading about it at the TBBS, it doesn't really bother me. Besides, nearly every episode of TOS was Super!Kirk. Now, whether this was an intentional move or not, I don't know, but it is not like previous Trek captain's haven't been "Super!"

 

[Captain X]

Super!Archer! took on several fully-trained Vulcan commandos while his fully Vulcan first officer took one hit and was knocked out cold. Kirk, on the other hand, got his ass handed to him by his half-Vulcan first officer, who according to McCoy was in no condition to take on a normal Vulcan who wasn't experiancing pon-farr. That's just one example off the top of my head.

 

[commodore64]

^ I think you're misremembering Amok Time and Kir'Shara.

In Amok Time, Kirk decided to fight Spock because he knew he might be able to fend off his weakened first officer in Pon Farr (Spock), but knew the Vulcans there would kick Spock's ass. (Ston looked particularly muscular.) Kirk ended up holding his own against Spock (despite the heat and gravity) until McCoy slipped him a mickey, rendering him unconscious.

In Kir'Shara, Archer was - thanks to the memories of Surak - trained in Vulcan martial arts and the neck pinch. I thought they explained that away decently plausibly. Seeing as most of the baddies were men, I'm assuming - like humans - men typically have more physical strength. Besides, they needed a ploy to kidnap T'Pol. (Although they didn't do much with it, other than prove Archer was still Archer even with Surak floating around in his brain and that Koss wasn't such a bad guy.)


And yet again - Super!Archer is the hero. It's why he constantly got "super powers." That's what happens to heroes -- Luke Skywalker, John Crichton, Neo (Matrix), Odysseus, Hercules, Xena, Kirk, etc. When you're the hero, you do super! things.

As for Archer was more super than Kirk, I don't remember Archer ever out-smarting a computer or out-logic-ing it. Kirk delt with the Changeling, Ultimate Computer, the androids of Mudd's woman (just to name a few) where he actually out-thought them. And yet, it's good. Why? Kirk is the hero.

 

[MattJC]

Yes, I was never bothered by this. Bakula was the star of the show, so it was no surprise that he got the bulk of all the cool stuff to do. However, it would have been nice to see Hoshi and especially Travis do more heroic stuff.

 

[Captain X]

^ I think you're misremembering Amok Time and Kir'Shara.

No I'm not, I have both on DVD.

In Amok Time, Kirk decided to fight Spock because he knew he might be able to fend off his weakened first officer in Pon Farr (Spock), but knew the Vulcans there would kick Spock's ass. (Ston looked particularly muscular.) Kirk ended up holding his own against Spock (despite the heat and gravity) until McCoy slipped him a mickey, rendering him unconscious.

Not really. He was getting schooled pretty well when McCoy evidently decided to make it look like Kirk had been killed.

In Kir'Shara, Archer was - thanks to the memories of Surak - trained in Vulcan martial arts and the neck pinch. I thought they explained that away decently plausibly. Seeing as most of the baddies were men, I'm assuming - like humans - men typically have more physical strength. Besides, they needed a ploy to kidnap T'Pol. (Although they didn't do much with it, other than prove Archer was still Archer even with Surak floating around in his brain and that Koss wasn't such a bad guy.)

First off, the katra wouldn't make him stronger or anything - he's still only human, and as stated several times in DS9, Vulcans are on average 3 times as strong as humans. We also have one example of a human carrying a katra, namely McCoy carrying Spock's katra, and he couldn't even successfully use a nerve pinch. T'Pol was also supposed to have been trained in martial arts, as stated in Marauders at least, and one of those Vulcan commandoes even brings it up himself.

And yet again - Super!Archer is the hero. It's why he constantly got "super powers." That's what happens to heroes -- Luke Skywalker, John Crichton, Neo (Matrix), Odysseus, Hercules, Xena, Kirk, etc. When you're the hero, you do super! things.

Which is stupid and stretches disbelief, and I've already made the case that during the series at least, Kirk wasn't that Super! None of the other captains had this to the extent of Archer. Even Luke Skywalker and Neo got their asses handed to them plenty of times - Luke even lost his hand and nearly lost his life. Odysseus wasn't exactly Super! either, he was just extremely lucky because Athena had his back. Hercules was the son of Zeus, go figure that he'd have some special abilities. Xena was a lame attempt at Greek mythology and much like the Kevin Serbo version of Hercules, it was a B sci-fi show that frankly I couldn't care less about.

As for Archer was more super than Kirk, I don't remember Archer ever out-smarting a computer or out-logic-ing it. Kirk delt with the Changeling, Ultimate Computer, the androids of Mudd's woman (just to name a few) where he actually out-thought them. And yet, it's good. Why? Kirk is the hero.

B&B were never that cerebral. With GR it was all about being intelligent and evolved, which is why Kirk tended to reflect that. Even when he'd get in a fight, it tended to have some point behind it, like making a gun out of crap he found around on that planet in order to get the Gorn, and then letting it live, or fighting Klingons in Day of the Dove, but only winning after getting the Klingons to temporarily ally with them against that energy being. With Archer it was always a matter of being the action hereo, and pretty much came down to *Archer smash!*

 

[bluedana]

Yes, I was never bothered by this. Bakula was the star of the show, so it was no surprise that he got the bulk of all the cool stuff to do. However, it would have been nice to see Hoshi and especially Travis do more heroic stuff.

Yup, 'bout sums it up.

 

[commodore64]

Which is stupid and stretches disbelief, and I've already made the case that during the series at least, Kirk wasn't that Super!

You did, but I think that assumption is incorrect. When you see Kirk out thinking the most powerful computers known, I would say that "stretches disbelief." Spock, naturally a logician, isn't the one that out thinks these super computers. Since you have the DVDs, you know what I mean.

Even Luke Skywalker and Neo got their asses handed to them plenty of times - Luke even lost his hand and nearly lost his life. Odysseus wasn't exactly Super! either, he was just extremely lucky because Athena had his back. Hercules was the son of Zeus, go figure that he'd have some special abilities. Xena was a lame attempt at Greek mythology and much like the Kevin Serbo version of Hercules, it was a B sci-fi show that frankly I couldn't care less about.

Uhm, I was speaking of the trials of Hercules (before it was a show with Kevin Sorbo, it was a myth from BC). And Jinx did an excellent job laying out that actually Archer had foibles. You know those times you call Archer stupid? That's when he's gotten his ass handed to him or fails a test.

B&B were never that cerebral. With GR it was all about being intelligent and evolved, which is why Kirk tended to reflect that.

GR reflected the ideas of the times: the fear that machine would replace mankind. The fact Spock didn't out-think the computers are odd. Kirk did so because he ... was simply the hero.

I think B&B had more depth than you give them credit. I thought, for example, Cogenitor was a beautiful story with interesting moral questions and no good answers.

Even when he'd get in a fight, it tended to have some point behind it, like making a gun out of crap he found around on that planet in order to get the Gorn, and then letting it live, or fighting Klingons in Day of the Dove, but only winning after getting the Klingons to temporarily ally with them against that energy being. With Archer it was always a matter of being the action hereo, and pretty much came down to *Archer smash!*

Archer's compassion was his biggest strengths and weaknesses. It's why in Observer Effect he offers himself (and how he is saved), why in Azati Prime he offers himself (and why he is saved), in Broken Bow protects T'Pol (and why she befriends him), etc.

He does much more than smashing up.

 

[Captain X]

You did, but I think that assumption is incorrect. When you see Kirk out thinking the most powerful computers known, I would say that "stretches disbelief." Spock, naturally a logician, isn't the one that out thinks these super computers. Since you have the DVDs, you know what I mean.

My analysis is entirely correct - Kirk used emotionalism to overcome the cold logic of computers where applicable.

Uhm, I was speaking of the trials of Hercules (before it was a show with Kevin Sorbo, it was a myth from BC).

I know, that's why I brought up that he was the sone of Zeus. I only brought up the Keven Sorbo show in comparison to Xena.

And Jinx did an excellent job laying out that actually Archer had foibles.

Not really. She listed a few instances and to be frank those are about the only ones from the series, and at least one of them could be turned around as an axample of Arcehr being Super!

You know those times you call Archer stupid? That's when he's gotten his ass handed to him or fails a test.

Yeah, that's pretty stupid alright, either he's Super! or FAIL! and that's it, apparently. But I thought you were cool with Archer being Super! Why do you keep going between that and trying to say that he wasn't?

GR reflected the ideas of the times: the fear that machine would replace mankind. The fact Spock didn't out-think the computers are odd. Kirk did so because he ... was simply the hero.

I think B&B had more depth than you give them credit. I thought, for example, Cogenitor was a beautiful story with interesting moral questions and no good answers.

And yet they still tried to say that Archer was absolutely correct, despite the fact that it made him a complete hypocrite.

Archer's compassion was his biggest strengths and weaknesses. It's why in Observer Effect he offers himself (and how he is saved)

One of the few times he came across as actually deserving to sit in the big chair.

why in Azati Prime he offers himself (and why he is saved)

Which made him look like a pathetic loser and was actually dereliction of duty on his part.

in Broken Bow protects T'Pol

No, he just wasn't a complete asswipe, that's all. Most any human being would've done the same thing, it's hardly something unique to Archer's character.

(and why she befriends him)

You know, I never did get how that happened. Suddenly they just told us that they were supposed to be friends, yet they never showed the process, or showed them gaining each othes trust. If anything, they showed him being an asshat to her, which really should've had the opposite effect as far as any so-called friendship forming between them.

He does much more than smashing up.

That was his default solution to everything.

 

[witchie]

I hated SuperArcher in Kirshara. Why was he the vessel? There were plenty of other Vulcans available for the meld. And then we have the Klingon ridges. It was a bit much. But time has diminished my annoyance.

 

[Trekwatcher]

I dunno. I have never thought of Archer as SuperArcher. All of the seasons, especially the early ones, show Archer coming along as a new captain, making mistakes and errors in judgment. Sure, he has some big moments, and saves the day on plenty of occasions, but if you look at The Andorian Incident, Desert Crossing, The Communicator, Rogue Planet, Acquisition (just to name a few) you can see that Archer has his big moments and his off moments. I actually always liked this about Archer-that we got to see him learn as he went. He only really manifests a consistent level of confidence in S4, to my eyes.

 

[angie]

Archer was a very human captain and without the experience and knowledge other future captains had to draw on. This is what drew me to him. Had Enterprise given us a Kirk or Picard it would have turned me off the show.We got a man who made mistakes especially in first contact situations.He wanted to take the human path rather than the Vulcan one which has lead to criticism he didn't listen to his first officer. He listened but didn't always follow which makes him his own man who took responsibility for his choices which I liked.

 

[Captain X]

There's a difference between being inexperianced and being inept, Archer was the latter.

 

[pookha]

^ I think you're misremembering Amok Time and Kir'Shara.

In Amok Time, Kirk decided to fight Spock because he knew he might be able to fend off his weakened first officer in Pon Farr (Spock), but knew the Vulcans there would kick Spock's ass. (Ston looked particularly muscular.) Kirk ended up holding his own against Spock (despite the heat and gravity) until McCoy slipped him a mickey, rendering him unconscious. .

seriously you need to go back and see amok time.
kirk seriously underestimated the effect of the how thin the air plus the heat.
spock was pretty much knocking him around and had wounded him before bones ever stepped it.

kirk was on the ground heaving before bones gave him the shot.
it is why the vulcans allowed the shot in the first place that kirk was showing the effect of fighting on vulcan.,
jim just before he gets the shot

that archer did what he did in kirshara after walking through the desert was just laughable.

the other one that readily comes to mind is shipment.
malcolm and hayes are just along for the ride and totally wasted in this episode.
malcolm is even made to seem incompent and a lousy shot because he cant hit a still sentry.
but super archer is magificent shot even with the sentries in motion.
and later who plants the tracker ect on the shipment.
not the people who had the training hayes or reed but archer.

now i dont have problems with archer being super in places were it would make sense like he is the best pilot but having him being the better military person then hayes or malcolm.
uh no