Subtitle Accuracy, should there be changes?

[valkyrie013]

There's been some curfuffle on subtitles with the Netflix series Squid Games
https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/54384/1/the-botched-squid-game-subtitle-saga-explained

From what I've read there close to accurate, but change some things, one of the examples is a kind of Korean Joke about not being smart was changed abit.
Now for me, I want as accurate as possible, if its a localized joke, or pun, Keep it in, I've seen sometimes an added subtitle that explains the joke, that is quite okay.

If your watching some for example Korean programing, you want to be imersed in the Korean structure, learn there ways abit.

Anime suffers alot with translation changes, there are some in the subtitle version, and a whole lot more in the Dubbed version, with some translators saying, Yes I changed it to make it more localized, or insert somethings that wern't said because they wanted to.

Some changes are going to happen, thats understandable, but I ask, when translating, make it as accurate as possible to the source material.

So thoughts? This goes beyond Squid Games, Anime, other localization of Bollywood, Chinese movies, Do you know of further examples? Whats your opinion of the localizations?

 

[BillJ]

Don’t care.

 

[marillion]

From what I read, the actual subtitles are close. It's the closed captioning subtitles that are causing all the confusion.

I'd like for them to be as accurate as possible.

I watched the dubbed version, so now I'm wondering how accurate that was.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Keep it as original as possible. Sure, there might be some translating issues at times, which can sometimes result in amusing dialog changes, but I think it's important to stay with the original intent as much as possible. If too much is changed, then you're changing the artistic narrative.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I probably told this story before in a different context, but when the original Japanese cut of Godzilla '54 was finally released in Germany, the German company did not hire a translator for the subtitles.

Instead, they used a transcript of the dub for the scenes that were in the German theatrical cut, translated/paraphrased from the US version for some scenes that were in that cut but not in the German version, and for a whole lot of scenes that were cut from both versions, they made up new lines.

Yes, you read that right, instead of actually translating the Japanese dialogue, they just invented new dialogue.

For example, in the scene where the parliament is listening to witness testimony of the destructions on Odo Island, according to the German subtitles the reporter rambles about it being the end of the world, while he makes a seemingly non-sensical downward-pushing hand gesture.
It was only when I got the US DVD from Classic Media and watched it with the English subtitles that I found out that said reporter actually makes the point that the destruction of houses could not be attributed to the storm, as they were crushed from above (explaining the hand gesture).

So, ever since when the film is re-released in Germany, I ask whether they have corrected the subtitles. So far no luck.

 

[Kor]

It's somewhat difficult when the dialog in the original language involves wordplay/puns that only make sense in the context of that language. In those cases some kind of adaptation makes sense, just to keep the story moving along, so that a paragraph isn't needed to explain the original literal meaning. But an effort should be made to convey the general 'spirit' of the original dialog, or something.

Kor

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I've noticed sometimes that Netflix will sometimes have both "dubtitles" and subtitles with the former being the CC which will match the dub which is sometimes looser to try to be more natural and the subtitles being closer to the original language.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Clarity is way more important than accuracy. And yes, the latter often comes at the cost of the former.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

FWIW Fallon riffed on the Squid Game subtitles in his monologue (the cast were his guest later in the show)

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Clarity is way more important than accuracy. And yes, the latter often comes at the cost of the former.

My first experience with being disappointed by bad translation was with John Woo's The Killer which I was obsessed with at the time. I had the original language with subs which I had watched a dozen times and then finally saw the dub version one day which took liberties with the translation and just crushed the poetic feeling invoked from the subs.

 

[Owain Taggart]

There's a series of Canadian movies that make light of this (Bon Cop, Bad Cop 1 & 2), come to think of it. They're movies presented as being bilingual, presented to both English and French speaking audiences differently in each market, even going so far as to have jabs as jokes in the subtitles for each market. The plot consists of an English-speaking detective forced to work with a detective from Quebec and would constantly have back-and-forth banter, and the writers were having fun with the subtitles, both in English and in French.

 

[Non Sync]

Programs that air on broadcast television are required to conform to FCC closed captions standards which include accuracy, synchronicity, completeness, and proper placement. These standards also apply when shown on the internet.

Unfortunately, they do not apply to programming only streamed.

 

[gblews]

If you don’t speak the language that is being translated, I can’t see how accuracy matters. The only way you’re going to know something has been badly translated, if you don’t speak the language, is if someone tells you.

Language is tricky. Sometimes too much accuracy renders the dialogue being translated, meaningless or misleading, or just plain less than artful.

.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I like it as close to the original as possible, except that certain cultural touchstones that people just will not understand can be localized. They shouldn’t just completely localize all the references. Art is a product of its place of origin and should stay that way. Only the local cliches and such which just don’t translate.

I do think accuracy managers because I believe the intent of the original writers should shine through as much as possible.

 

[gblews]

I like it as close to the original as possi

But how are you going to know if the subs are accurate or “close to the original as possible” unless someone tells you? And even after you’re told one way or the other, how would it change anything with with respect to your understanding of the presentation?

There was a guy on Twitter a day or two ago, complaining because he noticed there wasn’t a completely accurate translation of the Korean expression,, “oppa” in Squid Game. The guy sounded like a native English speaker. He didn’t complain about any other words, so I assume oppa was one of the few, or only, Korean words he knew. So, the only reason the guy complained about oppa was because he happened to know that word. There’s no telling how many other inaccurate translations there are in the show that the guy was completely unaware of.

This topic seems like much ado about nothing.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But how are you going to know if the subs are accurate or “close to the original as possible” unless someone tells you? And even after you’re told one way or the other, how would it change anything with with respect to your understanding of the presentation?

There was a guy on Twitter a day or two ago, complaining because he noticed there wasn’t a completely accurate translation of the Korean expression,, “oppa” in Squid Game. The guy sounded like a native English speaker. He didn’t complain about any other words, so I assume oppa was one of the few, or only, Korean words he knew. So, the only reason the guy complained about oppa was because he happened to know that word. There’s no telling how many other inaccurate translations there are in the show that the guy was completely unaware of.

This topic seems like much ado about nothing.

Just because I don't know something is wrong, doesn't mean it's not wrong. It means I am not watching a faithful version of the show.

If somebody showed you a mathematical proof that dealt with advanced concepts over your head, and there was an error in the proof, you might not know there was an error. But it'd still be wrong.

 

[gblews]

Just because I don't know something is wrong, doesn't mean it's not wrong. It means I am not watching a faithful version of the show.

Even if it is “wrong,” you’re not going to know. If you’ve watched any foreign language shows or movies and enjoyed them, you’ve already seen any number of incorrect translations.

Now, if someone tells you a show you watched and liked, had some bad translations, what are you going to do, retroactively dislike the show?

If somebody showed you a mathematical proof that dealt with advanced concepts over your head, and there was an error in the proof, you might not know there was an error. But it'd still be wrong.

I didn’t say that your being unaware of an erroneous translation made that incorrect translation correct, or not wrong. What I’m saying is that, you would not know there was an error in the translation. Same with your math analogy. The math problem would be wrong, just like the bad translation, unless the error was pointed out to you.

This thread reminds me of the “Small Universe Syndrome” thread.

 

[valkyrie013]

You rely on people who do speak the language, and then yell at the company that put it out to correct it. Or at least next time/episode/series to do it right. You don't put up with shotty workmanship. A good company would fix it or do better next time.
If they don't you don't watch it/buy it from them. And many others would follow.
Under your example, if you order lasagna but got eggplant parmesan.. It's still tasted good so you shouldn't complain?

 

[gblews]

You rely on people who do speak the language,

Yeah, just make sure you have access to people who are fluent in the language of whatever show you’re watching, right? Or you could watch the show with Google Translate open and enter every foreign word or phrase and get whatever the app tells you is correct. But then you’d once again not know for certain you were getting an accurate translation.

You’re not serious, are you? And once again, if you don’t have access to a person who is fluent in Korean or whatever, you’re STILL not going to know if you’re watching an accurate translation, what I’v been arguing this entire time.

Under your example, if you order lasagna but got eggplant parmesan.. It's still tasted good so you shouldn't complain?

No man, this is not the same at all. This has got to be one of the most erroneous analogies, ever. The person in your analogy might not know what eggplant Parmesan is, but because they ordered lasagna, chances are they do know what that looks and tastes like. If they try the eggplant and like it, or won’t be because rhino they’re eating lasagna.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Even if it is “wrong,” you’re not going to know. If you’ve watched any foreign language shows or movies and enjoyed them, you’ve already seen any number of incorrect translations.

Now, if someone tells you a show you watched and liked, had some bad translations, what are you going to do, retroactively dislike the show?

Of course not. I’d retroactively dislike the translation and try to get a more accurate one.

If accuracy doesn’t matter, why not just ignore the original text and write your own story? Hell, why not translate every line as “BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS”?

(I guess in some animes that’d actually be about 50% right).

If I watched the show without an accurate translation, I’m not sure I’ve actually seen the real show.

If somebody teaches you a version of history that Christopher Colombus was kind and loving to Native Americans, does it matter that he really brutally enslaved and murdered them? You don’t know the difference, after all.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's a hyperbolic comparison, of course. But just like history is history whether or not we know our version is wrong, "The show" is the one the original writers wrote, whether or not we know our version of it is wrong.