Subjective POV: But more women seem to prefer DS9 than other Treks
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I haven't seen any figures on this, though you'd think there were some available elsewhere. I've heard that Voyager had a higher percentage of female fans than the other Treks, but I haven't seen any data so I don't know if there's any real evidence for that or if somebody's just guessing.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the top Trek among women would be TNG, if for no other reason than that it's the highest rated of any of the Treks for men or women.
Personally, I like/love them all, except Enterprise, and for different reasons, so I don't think I can generalize based on my own preferences.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the top Trek among women would be TNG, if for no other reason than that it's the highest rated of any of the Treks for men or women.
Personally, I like/love them all, except Enterprise, and for different reasons, so I don't think I can generalize based on my own preferences.
Well, I know one of the reasons I prefer DS9 is because they had strong and not overly sexualized/objectified female characters. Kira was my favorite and fictional hero. She was a bad-ass, strong female who was still accessible and had a softer side. Jadzia was also a strong female character, and even "bad guy" females like Kai Winn were layered and interesting. When compared to someone like Troi, who they couldn't even get out of the sex-kitten outfit until almost the end of the show, or Seven of Nine with her catsuits, I can see why women would be drawn to DS9. 
That's been my experience in real life. Also the popularity of DS9 shown on this board isn't reflected in rl either, it would rate between TNG and VOY out of the Trek fans I actually know.
Meh, I beg to differ. Despite Muglrew's great acting, the writing for Janeway was wildly inconsistent. One week she cleaved to the Prime Directive like it was the most sacred belief at the core of her being, and the next week that went out the window. As for Torres, she was often shown to be rash, impetuous, and unable to control her temper, to the point where Tuvok had to help her with meditation. Seven was just a walking dominatrix fantasy. Which is not to say none of these characters ever had their character moments or development, I just prefer DS9 when it comes to showcasing strong women.
Yeah, DS9, IMO, had much better female characters than VOY... because DS9 had much better characters than VOY, period.
I often bring up a comparison of Kira and Janeway as an example of how to successfully write a strong female character (Kira) vs how to fail in writing a strong female character (Janeway). Kira is female, but that has never been her defining characteristics. She is a strong, complex, flawed character who is also female. Janeway doesn't really have any consistent defining characteristics other than "female captain". The writers were just so obsessed with the idea of her being a female captain that they forgot to really define and give depth to her character. You don't write male characters with "male captain" being their only defining characteristic, do you?
This article about the so-called "strong female characters" gets to the heart of the problem:
Janeway is a [Strong Female] Character. The whole purpose of her character is to be a woman who is strong and awesome and to show that a woman can be in command and that this is a good thing. But she's not a strong character, because she is so poorly defined and inconsistent, and doesn't develop at all. She does have flaws - those that the audience perceives - but they are a result of poor writing rather than a well thought out characterization.
I often bring up a comparison of Kira and Janeway as an example of how to successfully write a strong female character (Kira) vs how to fail in writing a strong female character (Janeway). Kira is female, but that has never been her defining characteristics. She is a strong, complex, flawed character who is also female. Janeway doesn't really have any consistent defining characteristics other than "female captain". The writers were just so obsessed with the idea of her being a female captain that they forgot to really define and give depth to her character. You don't write male characters with "male captain" being their only defining characteristic, do you?
This article about the so-called "strong female characters" gets to the heart of the problem:
Kira is a [Strong Character], Female. The DS9 writers understood what writing a strong female character means - it's the same thing as writing a strong character in general: interesting, complex, flawed character with a compelling background, a character who can carry a story, who grows and develops. A character who would be just as compelling if she were male.
Janeway is a [Strong Female] Character. The whole purpose of her character is to be a woman who is strong and awesome and to show that a woman can be in command and that this is a good thing. But she's not a strong character, because she is so poorly defined and inconsistent, and doesn't develop at all. She does have flaws - those that the audience perceives - but they are a result of poor writing rather than a well thought out characterization.
It helps that the writers were less nervous because Kira was 1) an alien, not a human and 2) She wasn't the central "Captain" character, Sisko was.
A female second in command was nothing new, I mean go watch "The Cage".
With Janeway, the problems were that 1) Jeri Taylor made her into her personal mary sue who could never make a bad call 2) Being the Captain character meant the feminists (or who Paramount considered feminists) would be PO'ed if she were portrayed "weak" (which is why they dropped the Maquis thing, they thought having a female captain unable to control her crew would give a bad message) and 3) Inconsistent writing thanks to the series' writers turnover rate.
A female second in command was nothing new, I mean go watch "The Cage".
With Janeway, the problems were that 1) Jeri Taylor made her into her personal mary sue who could never make a bad call 2) Being the Captain character meant the feminists (or who Paramount considered feminists) would be PO'ed if she were portrayed "weak" (which is why they dropped the Maquis thing, they thought having a female captain unable to control her crew would give a bad message) and 3) Inconsistent writing thanks to the series' writers turnover rate.
As a female, I couldn't agree more. I mean,I liked TNG, but loved DS9...Well, I know one of the reasons I prefer DS9 is because they had strong and not overly sexualized/objectified female characters. Kira was my favorite and fictional hero. She was a bad-ass, strong female who was still accessible and had a softer side. Jadzia was also a strong female character, and even "bad guy" females like Kai Winn were layered and interesting. When compared to someone like Troi, who they couldn't even get out of the sex-kitten outfit until almost the end of the show, or Seven of Nine with her catsuits, I can see why women would be drawn to DS9.
Kira is a [Strong Character], Female. The DS9 writers understood what writing a strong female character means - it's the same thing as writing a strong character in general: interesting, complex, flawed character with a compelling background, a character who can carry a story, who grows and develops. A character who would be just as compelling if she were male.
Janeway is a [Strong Female] Character. The whole purpose of her character is to be a woman who is strong and awesome and to show that a woman can be in command and that this is a good thing. But she's not a strong character, because she is so poorly defined and inconsistent, and doesn't develop at all. She does have flaws - those that the audience perceives - but they are a result of poor writing rather than a well thought out characterization. Good post, and very true!
Good Post!
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Women are more intelligent, which is why they like DS9 more.
Or I'd like to think so, but I have a sneaking suspicion VOY may have the most female-skewing fanbase.
Or I'd like to think so, but I have a sneaking suspicion VOY may have the most female-skewing fanbase.
Forgive me but unless I misunderstood, the OP did not ask us to consider "Which Trek do I and/or the other female Trek fans I know prefer?" or "Which Trek is best?" or "Which Trek has the strongest female characters?" Maybe that's what he meant to ask, but that's not what he said. The premise that the OP raised was whether "More women seem to prefer DS9 than other Treks." And I have to agree with Termis that I really don't think that's true. I'm sorry to say that since I'm writing in the DS9 forum and I happen to really love DS9 personally, but I think anyone would be hard-put to find real data as opposed to anecdotal evidence that proved anything of the kind.
For one thing, I think it's a fallacy that what women always want is strong female characters. Sure, many do, including me (although if a show had the best female characters EVER but the male characters were weak, I wouldn't enjoy the show very much either - a show needs to have a good mix of strong characters), but to assume that's what all women, even all women Trek fans, want is, well, not necessarily indicative of reality. Did I put that diplomatically enough?
Plus, the term "strong female character" is kind of vague, isn't it? Yes, Kira is a strong character (but so was Seven; I think Janeway was as well, though I can understand why others disagree, but I really don't see how anybody who watched VOY can dismiss Seven - or Torres). And I just love Kira - what a great character. But "strong" has many different meanings, doesn't it? I mean, Scarlett O'Hara, whom I do not love (never could get into Gone with the Wind, never, never, never), was a strong character. I just started reading George Eliot's Middlemarch, and Dorothea is a strong character. So is Miss Marple, in her own old-lady way. On the other hand, Tasha Yar was NOT a strong character, despite her bad-assity. She might have become one, had she stayed around a little longer and been written better, but her ability to kick butts and the fact that she wasn't overly sexualized doesn't make her a strong character, no matter her sex.
You don't have to be a bad-ass to be a strong female character, or to be any kind of strong character - you have to be well written, believable, and have some kind of..."internal strength" is the best phrase I can think of at the moment. And sexy clothes do not automatically eliminate someone from the "strong character" category, either. I mean, jeez, Emma Peel of The Avengers practically invented the catsuit, and all I can say is anybody doesn't consider her a strong character has, IMO, some explaining to do.
As I said, I don't have hard data, but if there is any of that out there and available, I'm fairly sure that more women would say they are TNG fans just because TNG has a much bigger fan base. And Termis might be right that VOY has the most "female skewed" fanbase - though I'm not 100 percent sure of that because I do wonder if that is the case, why did they put Seven in that silly catsuit and those ridiculous high-heeled boots? I'm not saying that because VOY is my personal favorite, because it isn't - I liked that show, but I like DS9, TNG and even TOS better. But at least in the beginning, TPTB seemed to really be pushing for the female demographic, and perhaps they got it.
For one thing, I think it's a fallacy that what women always want is strong female characters. Sure, many do, including me (although if a show had the best female characters EVER but the male characters were weak, I wouldn't enjoy the show very much either - a show needs to have a good mix of strong characters), but to assume that's what all women, even all women Trek fans, want is, well, not necessarily indicative of reality. Did I put that diplomatically enough?
Plus, the term "strong female character" is kind of vague, isn't it? Yes, Kira is a strong character (but so was Seven; I think Janeway was as well, though I can understand why others disagree, but I really don't see how anybody who watched VOY can dismiss Seven - or Torres). And I just love Kira - what a great character. But "strong" has many different meanings, doesn't it? I mean, Scarlett O'Hara, whom I do not love (never could get into Gone with the Wind, never, never, never), was a strong character. I just started reading George Eliot's Middlemarch, and Dorothea is a strong character. So is Miss Marple, in her own old-lady way. On the other hand, Tasha Yar was NOT a strong character, despite her bad-assity. She might have become one, had she stayed around a little longer and been written better, but her ability to kick butts and the fact that she wasn't overly sexualized doesn't make her a strong character, no matter her sex.
You don't have to be a bad-ass to be a strong female character, or to be any kind of strong character - you have to be well written, believable, and have some kind of..."internal strength" is the best phrase I can think of at the moment. And sexy clothes do not automatically eliminate someone from the "strong character" category, either. I mean, jeez, Emma Peel of The Avengers practically invented the catsuit, and all I can say is anybody doesn't consider her a strong character has, IMO, some explaining to do.
As I said, I don't have hard data, but if there is any of that out there and available, I'm fairly sure that more women would say they are TNG fans just because TNG has a much bigger fan base. And Termis might be right that VOY has the most "female skewed" fanbase - though I'm not 100 percent sure of that because I do wonder if that is the case, why did they put Seven in that silly catsuit and those ridiculous high-heeled boots? I'm not saying that because VOY is my personal favorite, because it isn't - I liked that show, but I like DS9, TNG and even TOS better. But at least in the beginning, TPTB seemed to really be pushing for the female demographic, and perhaps they got it.
I always thought the largest female fanbase in Trek could be determined by which show gets 'shipped the hardest. Let's see...
ENT:
Trip/T'Pol endlessly!
Archer/T'Pol somewhatly.
Trip/Archer salaciously.
VOY:
J/C, J/7, Doc/7, Tom/B'Elanna, B'Elanna/Chakotay, Kes/Anyone-but-Neelix...
And probably a tonne more I don't even want to think about.
DS9:
Kira/Odo, Kira/Dukat, Kira/Bariel, Kira...
or
Bashir/Dax, Bashir/Garak, Bashir/O'Brien, Bashir...
(oddly enough, never Kira/Bashir, DESPITE THE FACT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!)
TNG:
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between Riker/Troi.
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between Picard/Crusher.
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between LaForge/Brahms?
TOS:
There was only ever Kirk/Spock.
(yes, I know know this post is hopelessly - and maybe hilariously? - sexist, so feel free to bang me over the head with a rolling pin to thy heart's content. I deserve the lumps for it)
ENT:
Trip/T'Pol endlessly!
Archer/T'Pol somewhatly.
Trip/Archer salaciously.
VOY:
J/C, J/7, Doc/7, Tom/B'Elanna, B'Elanna/Chakotay, Kes/Anyone-but-Neelix...
And probably a tonne more I don't even want to think about.
DS9:
Kira/Odo, Kira/Dukat, Kira/Bariel, Kira...
or
Bashir/Dax, Bashir/Garak, Bashir/O'Brien, Bashir...
(oddly enough, never Kira/Bashir, DESPITE THE FACT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!)
TNG:
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between Riker/Troi.
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between Picard/Crusher.
The eternal Will-They/Won't-They thing between LaForge/Brahms?
TOS:
There was only ever Kirk/Spock.
(yes, I know know this post is hopelessly - and maybe hilariously? - sexist, so feel free to bang me over the head with a rolling pin to thy heart's content. I deserve the lumps for it)
Well, that was exactly my point. If you go and reread my post, and read the article I linked to and quoted from, the whole point is that what we need are "strong characters [female]" - i.e. well-written, complex, flawed, believable, well-developed, three-dimensional characters who can carry the story, and who are also female, vs "[strong female] characters" - characters written to represent "strong, badass women". Not that a character written as b) a strong badass woman can't also be a really strong female character, if she is also a) well-written, three-dimensional, etc.For one thing, I think it's a fallacy that what women always want is strong female characters. Sure, many do, including me (although if a show had the best female characters EVER but the male characters were weak, I wouldn't enjoy the show very much either - a show needs to have a good mix of strong characters), but to assume that's what all women, even all women Trek fans, want is, well, not necessarily indicative of reality. Did I put that diplomatically enough?
Plus, the term "strong female character" is kind of vague, isn't it? Yes, Kira is a strong character (but so was Seven; I think Janeway was as well, though I can understand why others disagree, but I really don't see how anybody who watched VOY can dismiss Seven - or Torres). And I just love Kira - what a great character. But "strong" has many different meanings, doesn't it? I mean, Scarlett O'Hara, whom I do not love (never could get into Gone with the Wind, never, never, never), was a strong character. I just started reading George Eliot's Middlemarch, and Dorothea is a strong character. So is Miss Marple, in her own old-lady way. On the other hand, Tasha Yar was NOT a strong character, despite her bad-assity. She might have become one, had she stayed around a little longer and been written better, but her ability to kick butts and the fact that she wasn't overly sexualized doesn't make her a strong character, no matter her sex.
You don't have to be a bad-ass to be a strong female character, or to be any kind of strong character - you have to be well written, believable, and have some kind of..."internal strength" is the best phrase I can think of at the moment. And sexy clothes do not automatically eliminate someone from the "strong character" category, either. I mean, jeez, Emma Peel of The Avengers practically invented the catsuit, and all I can say is anybody doesn't consider her a strong character has, IMO, some explaining to do.
Tasha Yar is a good example of the latter, a character written to be a 'strong, badass female' that is not a strong (female) character at all. Janeway is certainly better than Yar, but I don't think she was that well written either.
I agree that it's not necessary for a show to have strong female characters for women to be interested in it. Star Trek TOS has quite a few female fans. But it is a very nice asset if they do, especially since there are always less female than male characters in main casts on TV in general (disclaimer: except maybe in soaps?).
DS9 was just the best as character development, period. It's female characters were likewise better developed/explore than other characters (male or female) on all other Trek shows, IMHO. If women do gravitate towards DS9, maybe that's one of the reasons. Just good writing, acting, and character development, period.
That wouldn't be too much of a stretch as DS9's my wife's favorite.
And DS9 does focus more on relationships between the characters then the other shows, where the other shows kind of just throw a relationship into the mix as sort of an after thought.
I suppose DS9 is a bit more of a Soap Opera then the others simply due to the long and continuing story lines as well as deep character development.
Added:
^ That's not to say that all women like soap operas and stories revolving around relationship, or that any of that is a bad thing.... DS9's my favorite too.... so what would that say about me?
The character developments are deeper and more involved then the other shows, the stories are more solid, more interesting, the characters evolve and develop...... as hard as it is to say about a sci-fi show..... DS9 overall is just more..... "Real" when it comes to the interactions between characters, as well as their flaws and their evolution through the stories.
Though I feel TNG is a close second..... what drops it down for me is the reduced amount of action in the series compared to DS9, which makes DS9 balanced.
Here's another idea - maybe one of the reasons many women like DS9 (if that's actually the case) is the relative lack of technobabble compared to TNG and VOY?
Speaking for myself, what draws me most to Trek are the ethical, social, philosophical, and political issues. But the technical stuff goes over my head. I don't know how many women feel the same, but this is actually one of the stereotypes that are grounded in reality. Statistically, a lot more women on average show more interest in social sciences, languages etc. than in technical sciences, if you look at the career choices and the gender percentage on universities.
Speaking for myself, what draws me most to Trek are the ethical, social, philosophical, and political issues. But the technical stuff goes over my head. I don't know how many women feel the same, but this is actually one of the stereotypes that are grounded in reality. Statistically, a lot more women on average show more interest in social sciences, languages etc. than in technical sciences, if you look at the career choices and the gender percentage on universities.
I saw what appeared to be some condescendence towards Janeway being a female captain in VOYAGER; the idea that if you're a female captain, you can't be very feminine;
Adding Seven of Nine could have been a factor too- it was too obvious...at one point she's something of an martial arts expert, besides being sexy and always wearing a skin tight uniform..
It seems like Trek started off somewhat sensible with the strong female type, but ramped it up until it turned into a cliche.
Voyager was always interesting, but yet----never quite right for some reason.
Adding Seven of Nine could have been a factor too- it was too obvious...at one point she's something of an martial arts expert, besides being sexy and always wearing a skin tight uniform..
It seems like Trek started off somewhat sensible with the strong female type, but ramped it up until it turned into a cliche.
Voyager was always interesting, but yet----never quite right for some reason.
^I can understand how many women would have been offended by Seven of Nine's place and storyline in VOY.
First, it's pretty well known that she was brought into the series in part to up the show's younger male demographic; and when they saw that she indeed had that effect, the writers seemed to decide to do everything to continue to appeal to that.
Plus, i've seen a lot of female VOY fans say that she took much of the spotlight off of Janeway, and in particular that Janeway's uber-chaste persona in the face of Seven's often pronounced sensuality (and the fact Seven, and not Janeway, "got" Chakotay at the end), is a reversion to sexist/regressive stereotypes.
Personally, I found Seven, Torres and even Janeway pretty inetersting for the most part - but I also believe the writers too often reverted to narrative shorthhand when telling stories about them.
First, it's pretty well known that she was brought into the series in part to up the show's younger male demographic; and when they saw that she indeed had that effect, the writers seemed to decide to do everything to continue to appeal to that.
Plus, i've seen a lot of female VOY fans say that she took much of the spotlight off of Janeway, and in particular that Janeway's uber-chaste persona in the face of Seven's often pronounced sensuality (and the fact Seven, and not Janeway, "got" Chakotay at the end), is a reversion to sexist/regressive stereotypes.
Personally, I found Seven, Torres and even Janeway pretty inetersting for the most part - but I also believe the writers too often reverted to narrative shorthhand when telling stories about them.
if i claimed that men are more intelligent i'd be mobbed by members, and reprimanded by the forum-big brother because it's politically incorrect. you'll be left in peace because anybody knows it's satire.Women are more intelligent, which is why they like DS9 more.
Or I'd like to think so, but I have a sneaking suspicion VOY may have the most female-skewing fanbase.
to the second part. i guess you are right here, and that's because they prefer the matter-of-fact 7 of 9 to the nervous wreck that kira was. strong character, my ass. why, anyway? because some plots said she had to beat up a male or two? were does this craving for a strong female character come from? i'm quite content that real life women are seldom psychos.
