Strategic Designs' TOS Conny plans

[Cary L. Brown]

[

• Increase in the "local speed of light"
• Decrease in "observed mass" (relative to real space/time)

So... put your ship into a bubble of subspace, and you have a tremendously decreased mass... meaning you can accelerate a lot faster.

I don't think so, since your exhaust matter (if impulse engines exhaust anything) will be tremendously reduced in mass/energy as well negating the effect entirely. at least that seems logical to me.

Well, that's why you're in a "bubble" of subspace (with a boundary) instead of transitioning yourself entirely into another "realm" of space/time. If you somehow moved yourself into the "realm" of subspace, what you're saying would be accurate... except, perhaps, that "subspace" doesn't have a 1:1 relationship with "real" space/time (ie, the distance from point A to point B in subspace is far less than that within "normal" space).

 

[Patsmith1701]

That's an error I purchased a 2nd copy and the error was corrected so that the turbolifts line up.....are there any other TMP Enterprise plans out there---or plans of the torpedo room from ST VI ....Pat

 

[publiusr]

I agree, plus there is the possibility that a ship could use it's warp engines to manoeuvre at sublight speeds (albeit less efficiently than using impulse). I get the impression from several episodes that the warp engines can be used like this (sorry, no specifics at the mo!)

I think that was the case with "THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER." One of the starships had a damaged impulse deck?

Now the first we ever saw of combined warp impulse drive was the Vulcan shuttle, and perhaps the Klingon Bird of Prey, althought the wing hinges probably doubled as warp coils too. In some fan designs, I have seen self contained nacelles that had intermix antimatter sublight drives, the whole nine yards. It might be that the dome added to the end of the TOS nacelles represented some back up capability.

 

[Forbin]

Zombie thread!!

 

[Gagarin]

Indeed - I got all excited and then I couldn't make heads or tails of Patsmith1701's post.

 

[Herbert1]

Since this thread has been resurrected, I was curious which sources have said that the nacelles on the original Constitution design were self-contained units, meaning that there was a M/ARA located in each nacelle. Each nacelle was fed with deuterium and anti-deuterium to produce the energy required to produce a warp field.

Is this something from The Making of Star Trek? Is this based on comments by Matt Jefferies, and if in what source is this printed? Speculation by Franz Joseph? Is this the invention of fandom?

What sources do you recommend to read up on TOS starship technology?

 

[Captain Robert April]

The confusion goes back to how tech issues were handled back during TOS' production. The Writer's Guide (from which most of the tech info for "The Making of Star Trek" is derived) is very vague on the matter. The series itself was all over the map, generally depending on the nature of the episode and the crisis being presented.

It breaks down thusly:

If the situation amounts to "the ship is going to blow up unless such-and-such happens on the planet" then the writers tended to be very vague and go with some general reference to the nacelles. The solution to the problem had nothing to do with the ship itself, so no real thought was put into just what exactly was going wrong to endanger the ship. Blow up Landru/Vaal/whatever, and the systems will magically reset themselves.

If, however, the solution relied on Scotty actually fixing the problem in order to save the ship, it's amazing how detailed things get regarding how the ship actually works.

In "The Naked Time" we learn about the mixing of matter and antimatter in order to generate power for the ship. It's also where we first hear the term "intermix chamber."

In "Mudd's Women", we learn about the role the crystals play, in channeling the ship's power and make it usable.

In "That Which Survives" we have direct reference to the Matter/Antmatter Reaction Chamber, abbreviated in the TNG Tech Manual as M/ARC, and often referred to as the "warp core." We also learn that it's one unit, probably somewhere in the secondary hull near Engineering, is not meant to be manually inspected while the unit is in operation, and can be ejected.

In "Elaan of Troyius" we have a much clearer depiction of the dilithium crystals, what they do, particularly when they have to replace the burned out crystal with the rough stones of Elaan's necklace.

These instances laid the groundwork for the layouts we've seen ever since TMP, and most clearly depicted from TNG onward.

 

[Herbert1]

^And these ideas have been developed by fandom and the Okuda/Sternbach material contradicts TOS fandom? I don't quite understand the objection that TNG retconning is contaminating TOS.

 

[Mytran]

In "The Naked Time" we learn about the mixing of matter and antimatter in order to generate power for the ship. It's also where we first hear the term "intermix chamber."

Well no; we get "intermix formula" and Scotty saying "stand by to intermix."

In "That Which Survives" we have direct reference to the Matter/Antimatter Reaction Chamber, abbreviated in the TNG Tech Manual as M/ARC, and often referred to as the "warp core." We also learn that it's one unit, probably somewhere in the secondary hull near Engineering, is not meant to be manually inspected while the unit is in operation, and can be ejected.

Can't argue with that!

In "Elaan of Troyius" we have a much clearer depiction of the dilithium crystals, what they do, particularly when they have to replace the burned out crystal with the rough stones of Elaan's necklace.

What's odd about that episode is that we only see one crystal in the central engineering doodad, whereas in previous episodes there were 4 on board ship.

And while it's only from the Writer's Guide and not any episode, I think it's worth bearing in mind that:

The Enterprise engines (the two outboard nacelles) use matter and anti-matter for propulsion, the annihilation of dual matter creating the fantastic power required to warp space and exceed the speed of light.

The notion that the nacelles are the source of power (the "aviation" model) comes from the fact that Matt Jefferies was an aviator and likely designed the ship with that in mind. It also makes sense to put the really dangerous stuff (antimatter, reaction chambers) as far away from the habitable areas as possible.
However, while that may have been the original thinking, there's no accounting for writers changing things for the needs of the episode!

 

[Captain Robert April]

That bit from the Writer's Guide is still a bit vague on how everything actually works, though. F'r instance, it doesn't say how matter and antimatter are actually used, it doesn't actually say that the reaction takes place in the nacelles, only that they use the power from the reaction to generate the warp field.

Also, there's a very good argument to be made regarding putting your main power source waaaaaaaaaaaay the hell out on a couple of pylons, not just where it's a pain in the ass to maintain, but where your enemies can sharpen their markmanship abilities by seeing if they can shoot off your main source of power without destroying the whole ship.

 

[Mytran]

That bit from the Writer's Guide is still a bit vague on how everything actually works, though. F'r instance, it doesn't say how matter and antimatter are actually used, it doesn't actually say that the reaction takes place in the nacelles, only that they use the power from the reaction to generate the warp field.

Yeah, vague is best; that way you're less likely to contradict yourself later

Also, there's a very good argument to be made regarding putting your main power source waaaaaaaaaaaay the hell out on a couple of pylons, not just where it's a pain in the ass to maintain, but where your enemies can sharpen their markmanship abilities by seeing if they can shoot off your main source of power without destroying the whole ship.

The counter argument to this might be that the ship is shielded at all times, so the nacelles aren't any more vulnerable than the rest of the ship. And if you're going to have magentic fields form antimatter bottles and the fallout from M/AM reactions taking place on board then tons of lead shielding (or whatever) is going to be a necessity - not so if the equipment is located on long pylons. Taking an elevator up to maintain them occasionally is hardly a major hassle.

I'm a big fan of the aviation model and think it makes a lot of sense, but on-screen evidence clearly points to a single M/AM reaction chamber, which therefore can't realistically be in any one nacelle. Oh, well.

 

[Bernard Guignard]

wasn't there a Jeffries sketch of the Enterprise where the warp engines are called out as Power Units. Would that not
indicate what direction Jeffries was thinking

 

[Albertese]

...

Also, there's a very good argument to be made regarding putting your main power source waaaaaaaaaaaay the hell out on a couple of pylons, not just where it's a pain in the ass to maintain, but where your enemies can sharpen their markmanship abilities by seeing if they can shoot off your main source of power without destroying the whole ship.

...which is exactly what Commander Kruge ordered his gunner to do in Star Trek III.

Also of note (though in no way at all canon) the starship combat game FASA released concurrent with ST3 had the ship's available power level decrease as the engine nacelles took damage. Also, the Franz Josef Booklet of general Plans doesn't include any reactor hardware in the either hull, assuming that the power generation took place in the nacelles.

It does seem that matt Jefferies intended the reactors to be in the nacelles, but episode plot requirements muddied the issue somewhat. My favorite model that actually does fit all the on-screen dialogue is that each nacelle had a primary reactor self-contained which powered the engines themselves and that there was a third reactor in the engineering hull which was somehow critical to the operation of the first two, perhaps by synchronizing them in some important way. That way, there's a single object in an engineering space which can be sabotaged, but the really dangerous stuff is safely away in the nacelles where the can be easily jettisoned if need requires it. (all the while safely behind the same energy shields that protect the too thin neck and exposed command bridge)

--Alex

 

[WendellM]

wasn't there a Jeffries sketch of the Enterprise where the warp engines are called out as Power Units. Would that not
indicate what direction Jeffries was thinking

That's from page 68 of The Star Trek Sketchbook: The Original Series. On page 62, Jefferies states, "I was concerned about the design of a ship that Gene told me would have 'warp' drive. I thought, 'What the hell is warp drive?' But I gathered that this ship had to have powerful engines–extremely powerful. To me, that meant that they had to be designed away from the body."

 

[Mytran]

...My favorite model that actually does fit all the on-screen dialogue is that each nacelle had a primary reactor self-contained which powered the engines themselves and that there was a third reactor in the engineering hull which was somehow critical to the operation of the first two, perhaps by synchronizing them in some important way. That way, there's a single object in an engineering space which can be sabotaged, but the really dangerous stuff is safely away in the nacelles where the can be easily jettisoned if need requires it. (all the while safely behind the same energy shields that protect the too thin neck and exposed command bridge

It's a good theory, but in That Which Survives the M/AM reaction chamber that Scotty climbs into is explicitly described as controlling the flow of fuel:

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: What with? Bare hands?
SPOCK: A magnetic probe.

So...are you suggesting that there's a M/AM reactor in the secondary hull which controls the flow of fuel (ie yet more Matter and Antimatter) to the nacelles?

On page 62, Jefferies states, "I was concerned about the design of a ship that Gene told me would have 'warp' drive. I thought, 'What the hell is warp drive?' But I gathered that this ship had to have powerful engines–extremely powerful. To me, that meant that they had to be designed away from the body."

Even if they're not power generation units, the fact that nacelles have the power to WARP TIME AND SPACE means that locating them on the end of long, long pylons is a good idea in my book!

 

[TIN_MAN]

It does seem that matt Jefferies intended the reactors to be in the nacelles, but episode plot requirements muddied the issue somewhat. My favorite model that actually does fit all the on-screen dialogue is that each nacelle had a primary reactor self-contained which powered the engines themselves and that there was a third reactor in the engineering hull which was somehow critical to the operation of the first two, perhaps by synchronizing them in some important way. That way, there's a single object in an engineering space which can be sabotaged, but the really dangerous stuff is safely away in the nacelles where the can be easily jettisoned if need requires it. (all the while safely behind the same energy shields that protect the too thin neck and exposed command bridge)

--Alex

This has been my assumption, I think there is (or was) some sort of "warp core" or "symetrical warp field generator/govenor" that was in the secondary hull, and provided a static warp field around the ship, like we see in those TNG lcars displays that show a magnetic field thingy around the ship? This then somehow syncronized the two warp nacelles warp fields (which are counter rotating torsion fields?) via sympathetic vibration, thus keeping their spins synchronized and "balenced"? This might also explain why dilithium crystals are necessary, since crystals are routinely used (in the real world) as timing mechanisms, and in trek tech we can assume that by passing warp plasma through them, the whole system can be "tuned" to a single frequency, so to speak?

 

[Albertese]

....

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: What with? Bare hands?
SPOCK: A magnetic probe.

So...are you suggesting that there's a M/AM reactor in the secondary hull which controls the flow of fuel (ie yet more Matter and Antimatter) to the nacelles?

...

Not exactly. Here's the system as it exists in my imagination:

There are three M/AM reactors;

Reactor 1 - Port Nacelle
Reactor 2 - Starboard Nacelle
Reactor 3 (Central) - Secondary Hull

Reactors 1 and 2 are dedicated generators strictly for powering the warp engines. They don't do anything else.

The central reactor, Reactor 3, is used as the primary power source for the ship's systems in general. Part of that power is tapped by the "mains" and is fed to Reactors 1 and 2 as an electrical feed pulse to keep both systems synchronized.

By cutting the fuel to the central reactor as Scotty did, you would stop it from sending the feeder pulse to the nacelle reactors which would cause them to not be able to continue generating their own power.

Therefore the central reactor in the secondary hull is vital for operating the warp drive, but it isn't really what powers the drive.

That make sense? I've been polishing this theory for years but I haven't had a chance to fact check it yet against the entire run of the show...

--Alex

 

[Mytran]

Thanks for expanding on that. Wouldn't there also be separate control circuits for each of the nacelle reactors? This is the rest of the pertinent dialogue from That Which Survives - it seems to suggest the dangerous proceedure that Scotty went through was the only way to cut off the engines:

SCOTT: Watkins, check the bypass valve on the matter/antimatter reaction chamber. Make sure it's not overheating.

LOSIRA: Show me this unit. I wish to learn.
WATKINS: This is the matter-antimatter integrator control. That's the cut off switch.
LOSIRA: Not correct. That is the emergency overload bypass, which engages almost instantaneously. A wise precaution, considering it takes the antimatter longer to explode once the magnetic flow fails.

SPOCK: Bridge to Engineering. Negative effect on power reduction. Speed is still increasing.
SCOTT: Aye, Mister Spock, and I found out why. The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused. It's completely useless. The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them. We should reach maximum overload in about fifteen minutes.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Trying to come up with a rationale for putting the main power generators out in the nacelles needlessly complicates the whole situation, which is why I tend to downplay the references that point in that direction as much as possible, which is made easier by the fact that the ones that do point to the nacelles are usually pretty vague to begin with. The ones that point to a central reactor in the secondary hull are, by comparison, pretty damn specific.

Plus, it makes it a helluva lot easier to reconcile the design of the Enterprise with those from the rest of the franchise.

As for Kruge targeting the engines, didja think maybe he was trying to disable the ship so it couldn't get away? Knocking out a warp nacelle would do that quite nicely. Besides, we're talking the refit, and it's obscenely obvious that the nacelles do not do the power generation in that design.

 

[Albertese]

Thanks for expanding on that. Wouldn't there also be separate control circuits for each of the nacelle reactors?
...
That Which Survives - it seems to suggest the dangerous proceedure that Scotty went through was the only way to cut off the engines...

You'd like to think so. However, I'd also like to think there are fuses to prevent potentially lethal showers of sparks from flying out of consoles on the bridge. Evidently Starfleet engineering has some funny ideas. Also, given that Losira managed to fuse the whatsits that was mentioned in dialogue doesn't mean that she couldn't have also fused the whosits in the line that would normally be a failsafe. Thus leaving Scotty one - terrifying - option.

...
As for Kruge targeting the engines, didja think maybe he was trying to disable the ship so it couldn't get away? Knocking out a warp nacelle would do that quite nicely. Besides, we're talking the refit, and it's obscenely obvious that the nacelles do not do the power generation in that design.

I was referring to the Grissom, who's power generation arrangement is totally up for grabs.

But when, the Enterprise is hit, the weapon strike hits the aft end of the saucer, just port of the impulse dome (commonly thought of as the upper end of the intermix shaft - directly attached - possibly a component of - the main reactor) and arcs over to the port nacelle. After the hit, Kirk orders "emergency power," therefore suggesting that this hit did somehow disable the primary power source rather than simply making it too hard for the Enterprise to fly away. At first I wondered if maybe Kruge didn't know about the change in generator set-up on the refit, but then I thought, that this guy is a Klingon Commander and is likely privy to intelligence concerning Federation technological developments (Genesis for instance). So given that the refit was something like 10 years before ST3 give or take, he probably had some idea what he was doing.

--Alex